Senthamizh nADennum pOthinile Lyric and meanings

sowmya · Post by **sowmya** » 12 Apr 2008, 08:16

arasi wrote:Indeed, and how very true!
Still, we cannot give up singing Sentamizh nADennum pOdinilE... (when one utters tthe name of the great tamizh nADu). When we hear the name of TN today, our ears do not feel as though they get drenched in the nectar of such a name!

Hi, About Sentamizh nADennum.. I've heard this song on some cassette, and been smitten with it ever since. I'm not a tamilian, and I don't know Tamil. I don't even know what exactly in this song attracts me so much. Just that I can't get the tune, and the bhava, out of my head. Could someone please provide a rough translation of the song, or tell me where I can find it?

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 12 Apr 2008, 09:02

Sentamizh nADenra pOdinilE inba tEn vandu pAyudu kAdinilE
yengaL tandaiiyar nADenra pEcciinilE oru Sakti pirakkudu mUccinilE....

When we as much as take the name of our land (Sen tamizh nADu enra pOdinilE), it sounds as if a delightfully sweet (inba) river of honey (tEn) flows (vandu pAyudu) into our ears (kAdinilE). And when we talk (pEccinilE) of the land (nADu enra) of our (yengaL) forefathers (tandaiyar) we feel a (oru) surge of power (Sakti) suffusing (pirakkudu) our very breath (mUccinilE)...

If Lji posts the rest of the verses, I can try my hand at translating them...

meena · Post by **meena** » 12 Apr 2008, 09:34

shentamizh nAdenum. rAgA: kAmbhOji/pUrvikalyANi/mOhanakalyANi/rAgamAlikA.

1. shentamizh nADennum pOdinilE inba tEn vandu pAyudu kAdinilE engaL
tandaiyar nADenra pEcchinilE oru shakti pirakkudu mUcchinilE (shentamizh)
2. vEdam nirainda tamizh nADu uyar vIram sherinda tamizh nADu nalla
kAdal puriyum arampayar pOliLan-kanniyar shUzhnda tamizh nADu (shentamizh)
3. kAviri ten peNNai pAlAru tamizh kaNDadOr vaighai porunai nadi ena
mEviya yAru palavODat tiru mEni shilirtta tamizhnADu (shentamizh)
4. muttamizh mAmuni nILvaraiyE ninru moympurak kAkkum tamizhnADu shelvam
ettanaiyuNDu bhuvimIdE avai yAvum paDaitta tamizhnADu (shentamizh)
5. nIlat tiraikkaDa-lOrattilE ninru nittan tavam sheyyum kumariyellai vaDa
mAlavan kunram ivaTriDaiyE pugazh maNDik kiDaikkum tamizhnADu (shentamizh)
6. kalvi shiranda tamizh nADu pugazhk kamban piranda tamizh nADu nalla
palvida-mAyina shAttirattin maNam pArengum vIshum tamizhnADu (shentamizh)
7. vaLLuvan tannai ulaginukkE tandu vAnpugazh koNDa tamizh nADu nenjai
aLLum shilappaddhikAramen-rOr maNiyAram paDaitta tamizhnADu (shentamizh)
8. shingaLam puTpagham shAvakamAdiya tIvu palavinunj shenrEi angu
tangaL pulikkoDi mInkoDiyum ninru shAlpurak kaNDavar tAinADu (shentamizh)
9. viNNai iDikkum talaiyimayam enum verpaiyaDikkum tiranuDaiyAr ssamar
paNNik kalingat tiruL keDuttAr tamizhp pArttivar ninra tamizhnADu (shentamizh)
10. shIna mishiram yavanaragam innum dEsham palavum pugazh vIshak kalai
jnAnam paDaittozhil vANibhamum migha nanru vaLartta tamizh nADu (shentamizh)

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 12 Apr 2008, 18:23

Oh Good Lord! I should have checked how many verses there were before shooting my mouth off, huh?!!!

Thanks, Meena!

#2: (with some corrections)
vEdam nirainda tamizh nADu uyar vIram shezhinda tamizh nADu nalla
kAdal puriyum arambayar pOliLan-kanniyar shUzhnda tamizh nADu (shentamizh)

This tamizh land (nADu) of ours is replete (nirainda) with the essence of the vEdas, and it is where mighty (uyar = good quality) valor (vIram) flourishes (Sezhinda). It is also a land abounding (SUznda) in beautiful young (iLan) maidens (kanniyar) who resemble (pOl) the apsarAs (arambayar) adept in the art of love (nalla kAdal puriyum).

MODS: Can you please move post 12, 14, 15, and 16 (this one) to the tread on the mahAkavi?

vidya · Post by **vidya** » 12 Apr 2008, 21:12

shirantha ; sherintha ; sheyyum ; shUzndha ; shilirtta; vIshum ; shingalam; shInam
Am I the only one here who winces with pain every time I see these?

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 12 Apr 2008, 21:56

vidya the shIththalai chAththanAr

sowmya · Post by **sowmya** » 12 Apr 2008, 22:33

Hey Thanks!! I had no idea that the song has so many verses. I've heard only three... I hope rshankar will be kind enough to provide the translations for the rest too... and vidya, as I said, I don't know tamil. What's wrong with the words you mentioned? Are they wrong grammatically, or does it have to do something with the meaning?

Lakshman · Post by **Lakshman** » 12 Apr 2008, 23:37

Vidya wrote:

Am I the only one here who winces with pain every time I see these?

No you are not the only one. I too wince when I see or hear words like magAgaNapatim, magAtmA kAnti, bathmA. nIlaganDan etc.
Meena probably posted the text from my lyrics CD.
When I transliterate from tamil I have problems with words like bhAvam / pAvam, sharaNam / charaNam.
People who know tamil language already know the meaning of tamil words and can modify the written word the way they want it.
I have had many an argument with people with the use of r and R. I write veTri but they say that it should be written as veRRi. I would think that a non tamilian would read it the way it is written unless he/she knows the nuances of the language.
In any case what is the standard for such words? And who sets them?
I have always felt that when tamilians transliterate tamil into roman script they use h a lot. But when harsh h sound is needed they don't use the h. Very confusing to say the least!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 13 Apr 2008, 00:16

I have had many an argument with people with the use of r and R. I write veTri but they say that it should be written as veRRi.

I agree. That is one of those crazy transliteration strandards, not intuitive at all. Personally, I am perfectly comfortable with veTri. veTri is phonetic whereas veRRi ( quite funny sounding if said that way ) is a direct representation of how it is written in Tamil.

The ones Vidya mentions, those tamil words do not have the 'h' sound, so phonetic transliteration would leave the 'h' out: e.g 'sheyyum' would be 'seyyum' . What you see is what you say ( WYSIWYS scheme

)

The other examples you quote are Sanskirt words that are used in Tamil. If sanskrit words are ported over to Tamil "as is", then Sanskrit based phonetic transliteration is the right one. And many words have changed in common usage. For those words, if the original sanskrit pronounciation is used, they sound very 'brahminical'

Knowing which one is which is a tough thing. I make all sorts of mistakes on such words

(Lji, I do not mean to say you need to change your database.. just some general thoughts on this oft-discussed topic ).

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 13 Apr 2008, 00:19

I am comfortable as long as I understand the meaning!
I got very poor marks for spelling at my 'thiNNai paLLikkUDaM'.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 13 Apr 2008, 00:37

While I am one of those who differentiates r and R in my writing, I may not be doing it properly with other letters! I write veTRi for vetri or veRRI!). Why? As Lakshman says, there is no written rule as yet. Even our Arun (bless his skills in 'everything' CM) would say that it is not easy.
Coming to the R and r business again, it is clear that for those who ask for the lyrics in order to sing them, whether it is ra or Ra, can pronounce the word as r since the stronger R is not pronounced differently!

Lakshman,
The amount of years you have spent in acquiring the songs (you still do) and the enormous time you spend on putting them up on our forum (and elsewhere) and the speed with which you do it is all unimaginable.

Ravi,
You do reams of translation of verses for anyone who asks. Without you, there is no translation department here. I get fazed by more than a few verses at a time! But for you, we are all casual workers here. It is not just tamizh compositions that you tackle. All this means a chunk of time out of your free time. Ask any dancer on the forum. Without you, they will be lost. Your knowledge and love for dance helps them no end. Your stories from myths is an added asset.

Now, go on and do the rest of the work in translating our beloved bard

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 13 Apr 2008, 00:40

'thiNNai paLLikkUDaM'

and 'aTTai kLass' also

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 13 Apr 2008, 01:22

Lakshmanji (and others)

We have had this precise argument in the past - many times. And it has been a stalemate. At this point I have given up that it will never change

.

The veTRi vs veRR is immaterial to the point Vidya raised. You are going for pronounciation (and yes that is certainly the most appropriate approach) and not representation in native language.
Given that:
1. We are talking about usage in tamizh contexts. There is a difference between that and usage in Sanskrit contexts (even withing tamizh compositions). But I agree that difference can be quite muddled given how tamil composers mixed Sanskrit into Tamil owing to their cultural backgrounds.
2. "Ashai" etc. is not the most appropriate (although that you use "sha" for where other schemes use "Sa" makes it a bit more worse than it need be here). Now this is not exactly wrong, but if you want to go for "most correct" or "most applicable/safest" (as I am sure you are going for w.r.t telugu, sanskrit and kannada), then it must be Asai. Yes many people in CM world use Ashai, but it does not make it any more correct in the context of the Tamil language - it is still an accent. Maybe as much as accent as "serkara" and "Seranam" that some telugu people. Now we are not going around transliterating telugu compositions that way - are we?
3. There are some morphs (like mugam, sugam, naDanam) which are proper tamizh words inspite of their non-tamil origins. Trying to turn them into sanskritized words - while it can be argued as justifiable, is still not most appropriate. By this token you change every sAmi ninnE to svAmi ninnE in most varnams. But I will add again that this gets very dicey because tamil composers use these in otherwise tamizh context but ALSO in long Sanskrit phrases (and thus compositions lean towards maNi pravaLam). So yes not easy

As I have mentioned before, whether we would have liked it otherwise or not, tamil has evolved a certain way and it has its own idiosyncracies. They should and can be respected more.

But if you are again sticking to "my transl. scheme is geared towards correct/proper/approp pronounciation but come up with say "en maghanin mukhattai AshaiyODu pArtu paravasham koNDu sukhattil mUzginEn", then the only place this would be proper may be in certain households in certain communities

. In a tamil literary session, ths may raise a few eyebrows and expose many a teeth.

This has been discussed way too many times before. I dont think this time will make any difference.

But please dont mistake me - I think your service is still one of the best. I just think it can be made better - although I can imagine that it would be painstaking effort to go around changing places that need changing (it obviously cannot be a blind search and replace in tamil compositions). I can also understand that because of that amount of work, one may be very hesitant and reluctant to do it. But I cannot understand the argument that it must be "ashai" everywjhere and mukham everywhere. Nor do I understand the counterargument "by that token it must be veRRi or mInAtci"

Arun

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 13 Apr 2008, 01:36

Arun,
The more we discuss it, more things surface.
A few doubts (as always!). I thought ASai was just perfect, and have been using it, in order to go away from Asai too which does not appeal to me. I thought I learnt it from you to write it down as ASai.
You are so right. How are we to explain for the morphs sounding different in different places in the sAhityA too? I see it in my own songs when I sing them.
A classic example would be naDanam ADinAr (it flows) but not naDarAjan!
Take my song vEnagaDavA unai vENDinEn. I was a bit nonplussed when I heard someone sing it as vEngaTavA!
Yes, it is all complicated.
Still, I want to know one thing now.
Is it ASai or Asai?

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 13 Apr 2008, 01:40

arasi - I believe it is Asai only per sen-tamizh. The "Sa" sound exists in tamizh only w.r.t sanskrit based words. I believe the usage of it in place of sa is a characteristic of the brahminic dialect.

Arun

vidya · Post by **vidya** » 13 Apr 2008, 02:27

Lakshmanji,
No offence meant to your efforts or the time you put in, I believe that the quality of transliteration in Tamil can be improved and this is why I raised the issue.
When one does not know the language one goes by the following general principle(s):

- Respect the underlying prosodical structure. If a poet has used idham seydhu in a line and a few words later he/she uses a beautiful mOnai with another letter that starts with 'i' changing the idam to hitam, tampers with the original intent of the Poet. Same with the sh, s phenomenon.
- When in doubt (esp in lyrics databases) regarding a word or word origin one can always ask and change them. yes sometimes you do get multiple confounding answers but there are a lot of cases in the Tamil lyrics that you post where there is only one single answer for sirandha, seRindha etc.
- If you read the words I listed they are not words like dEsham or VETri but words,all the words I have used are not Sanskrt words but very native Tamil ones.
Again I have seen this shonnEn and SheydhEn only among a few minority speakers of a dialect.So how does using them make it standardized?
- Yes, There are standards in a language and in some languages there is more context specificity and there is no reason not to change
something if it is clearly incorrect.
- Another suggestion when faced with multiple confounding answers is that a foot note can do wonders in such cases such as dEsham/ dEsam .

Sowmya.
I did not intend to complicate this but the issue is :
Tamil does not have a way of distinguishing sh and s but some of these letters need to be pronounced as 's' but have been transliterated as 'sh'.
However this is a non-issue to most native speakers of the language and they don't need to impose the feature of one language upon another.
Infact there are several languages in the world that have this trait of pronounciation based upon context.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 13 Apr 2008, 05:07

Arasi,

Thank you for your kind words. As you know, this is more of an education for me than a mere exercise in translation!

Vidya/Arun:

AFAIK, I use the words as I know how to speak them. Personally, my phonetic sense makes me wince when I hear 'sonnAn'! I grew up hearing the admonition 'Sonna peccai kELu' and not 'sonna peccai kELu', and certainly not 'conna' as it is actually written! So, that is how I 'write'. I do understand that it is my personal choice, and represents just my way of speaking/pronouncing.

There's an interesting anecdote connected with this: To get our degree from the Madras University, we had to write out our name in English and tamizh. Since many of my class-mates were non-tamizh speakers, a person from the local registrar's office was assigned to help us write our names. I told the guy that I did not need any help, and wrote my name out as Ravi Shankar and 'ரவி ஷங்கர்'. When I handed in my form, the guy had a cow over the way I had written my name in tamizh and we had an argument that amused everyone else there: I held on to the position that since I did not want my name to be pronounced as sankar or cankar, this was my only option to ensure that it was read correctly. After several minutes, he gave in with very bad grace. A few days later, I had to go through the same arguments with a guy from the office of the Dean in Madras University. I ultimately prevailed, and I probably am one of the few 'Shankars' whose name is 'spelt' as ரவி ஷங்கர் on the degree certificate!

Bottom line: If anyone feels that what is 'written' is incorrect, please feel free to point out the correct way to say/write it, and interested individuals will benefit from it.

Sowmya,

I intend to translate it one verse at a time....I do hope the brouhaha with the issues over sh/S/s have not prevented the experts (Arasi, Rajani and everyone more knowledgeable than I) from fixing errors of translation (which to me carry more importance)!

Just my personal opinion!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 13 Apr 2008, 06:43

Just to add some levity, Ravi, I am sure the Shankar conversation with the University dude was quite amusing to others close by. I agree Arun's made up sentence if actually spoken would be quite hilarious. On the other hand, if some one speaks in non-colloquial manner in an otherwise colloquial context, it gets to be very funny too.

Sri Lankan tamils are huge sources of laughter along those lines. One day we were watching TV and our dear Sri Lankan tamil friend walked in and asked 'Enna kandu kaLiththu Kondirukkireerhal?". We were rolling on the floor laughing. This is not the first time she has amused us, so she is used to our immature but uncontrollable amusement at her expense.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 13 Apr 2008, 07:13

Ravi,
A good story and your stance was commendable. As for 'shankar', someone I know adds an 'h' to his name and I wonder what story he has to tell.
VK,
Tell your sri lankan friend that your musuppAtti or pagaDi (joking) is all in innocent fun and is within the boundaries of friendship. Tell her she is entitled to make fun too, in return.

Vidya,
Your scholarship is well-known among us. Please do join in and enlighten us whenever you can. As Ravi says, we are learning here all the time.

Sowmya,
Enjoy the beauty of Bharati's verses and next time you hear it in a concert, we would like to know how you felt.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 13 Apr 2008, 07:54

VK,

My memory is a bit fuzzy about that dialogue, but it went along the lines of: 'we don't write it that way in 'our' language' - 'that is all fine and dandy, but it is my name, and what I say should hold'! My friends were very amused, but I certainly was NOT! LOL!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 13 Apr 2008, 08:08

Ravi.
While nADenRa is correct, 'nADenum' pOdinilE is what I know it as and is also sung, I think.

vidya · Post by **vidya** » 13 Apr 2008, 08:38

rshankar,
Idiolectal variations are not standard/literary variations. That is, it does not matter whether one's athai patti pronounced shonna etc or what one
heard while growing up or even if 5 out of 10 carnatic singers sing it that way. Imposing a minority idiolectal pattern on a standard database is not a good idea. Nor is transliterating based on hearing songs (not always correctly rendered).

Grammatically there are only two issues here:
- Inherent words and the rules for variations in pronounciations. For details refer to thishttp://www.ibiblio.org/guruguha/personal/Tamizh.htm These have no room for 'sha'
- Imports from other languages - words like dEsham etc. It is here that Tamizh handles it differently from Malayalam

Here is what Prof.George Hart (a non-native speaker / expert ] says on the subject:
At the risk of sounding a bit sanctimonious, I'd like to put in a strong word for a proper transliteration of Tamil. That means the transliteration of the Tamil Lexicon or something close to it. One of the great miracles of linguistic insight is the way in which the Brahmi alphabet was adapted for Tamil about the third century BC. Whoever did it realized that, given the phonological rules of Tamil, the letters in kaa, akam, and anku, though all pronounced differently, are actually the same phoneme. He or she accordingly used the same Brahmi character for "k" in all these positions and eliminated the kh, g, and gh that are in Prakrit/Sanskrit but not in Tamil. The genius of the Tamil language, and all its history, depend on this insight, which is a truly awesome one. Now we see people who want a "phonetic" transcription of Tamil. This is nonsense. If we start writing "kaa," "agam" and "angu," we have, purely and simply, murdered the language. If one is writing for people who know no Tamil, then there may be some excuse for writing "kamban," but if one writes for Tamilians, then PLEASE, let's keep "kampan" -- otherwise, the entire morphology and structure of the language are lost. It may be worth remarking that even Malayalam (which, like modern Tamil, comes from old Tamil) keeps this system. In fact, Malayalam actually has two writing systems: one for native words and one for Sanskrit borrowings. The fact that Malayalis did not feel they could adopt "phonetic" renderings for native words should suggest to all of us that it is unwise, and indeed quite dangerous, to do for Tamil.

Conclusion:

- I am in no way suggesting we write Kampan in the context of carnatic music but why not let Tamil words like siRandha be siRandha default to 's' and not Sh?
- Ofcourse feel free to do whatever you are comfortable with words like dEsham, sharaNam etc
- But irrespective of the above, do not tamper with the composer's intent. If BharathiyAr has used idhancOlli for the sake of rhyming with iDitturaippAn it is incorrect to modify it as hitam sholli.
- ie Even for imports from other languages - Some poets/lyricists who only use kiruTTinan and there are others who use kRishNan. All I am saying is that let us not impose our own opinion on that of the creator of a work.
- Lastly if someone uses 'sh' uniformly for both varieties and follows the uniform transliteration scheme it is a different issue. Here in some cases arbitrarily (as in samar) s is used and in all others sh is used.

Lakshmanji,
Once again the intention is not to pick on the lyrics database or I am not in any way devaluing the invaluable service you render to the community.
I am only using this as an example to communicate a point of view on Tamil and transliteration (and I guess my own weakness and propensity for polemics!!)

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 13 Apr 2008, 20:50

Just wanted to add a couple of points:

Ravi - all said and done the usage of "Sa" for "sa" (or "sha" per Lakshman's scheme) etc. doesnt bother me that much - as I realize it as a dialect variation. What bothers me more is that we may be losing sight that this is a dialect variation and no matter how "familiar" it is to us (so much so that it would seem like the right one to many of us as evidenced even here), per sentamizh it is "sa" sound only. In fact, I am a bit surprised and mildly shocked that to hear that usage of "sa" sound here is bad and wrong! That clearly tells me we have indeed lost sight of how it is so in sentamizh. Also, Imagine the same logic if applied to telugu? That is some says "SaraNam sounds bad, I like only SeraNam"

!! But I also realize this is an idiosyncracy of tamizh. Unlike Sanskrit etc. the pronounciation of tamizh is variable EVEN for formal usages

In any case, I dont know what the solution is but if it were up to me, I would conform to the sentamizh way but add a footnote that "in practice in CM world, Sa is used in place of sa for native tamizh. At the least, continue with "sha" but add a footnote that "in sen-tamizh, sa should be used in place of Sa for native tamizh words"

Now for a different point (and yes this a mucho-mucho deviation from the main topic of this thread - sorry)
PS: On any other forum I will be scorched alive for this

- i realize i may be going a bit too far.
Regarding the point Prof. Hart makes - I completely disagree with this approach *even* for tamizh speakers. First it irks me that this may be providing too much fodder for language fanatics who simply want to bury their heads in the sand to forget about all uses of the language over time. Also, if it were so unambiguous I am not sure there would be that much variation in spoken dialect. Sure a language that has "fuzzy" rules and as many exceptions as rules is not uncommon (English being the other one), but in such a case IMO the evolution of the script seems not ideal. So I dont buy "the genius of it" etc. particularly w.r.t where it can get ambiguous - all that seems self adulatory.

But my main problem with this line of argument is entirely misses the boat on LARGE body of reasonably old tamizh works which are replete with Sanskrit based words (Azhwars erc,). People want to ignore this and only look at Sangam works - I find that silly and represent heights of impracticality. Talk about trying to live in the past! Sure we need to celebrate old literature (just like Vedic Sanskrit is celebrated), but we need to recognize that the language has evolved a way, and we in 20th century cannot change that fact no matter how much we create a hue and cry! Our only choice is to accept it! Doing otherwise is what I feel is dangerous! But ok the Azhwar and Nayanmar works may be more culturally influenced and so one could argue that the composers really were going for maNIpravaLam type of a thingie and the Tamil language should not change. But the fact remains these people composed a lot of stuff in tamizh and mixed a lot of Sanskrit words in it. They werent lynched for it and hence it was certainly acceptable (and I dont think all of them were part of a cabal community which forced it into the language - they roamed from temple to temple across the land singing this. Although this forced into language business is not exactly without an iota of merit).

But let us take the kuRAL - something that is used is every tamizh literary session. The very very first kuRAL has "pakavan" - which does not conform to native tamizh pronounciation rules. I just looked up one of the pattuppATTu - it has deivam. So import words have been around for a very very long time. So given that was the original adaption of Brahmi script that much a "genius" work. I am sorry the script is woefully inadequate to even meet the needs of its consumer. And it was so even in Sangam times

! I think a separate letter for pa/ba etc. would have done wonders. But we cannot change it now and we have to live with additional idiosyncracies!

Arun

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 13 Apr 2008, 21:50

Arun,
A thought provoking post to spell out the complications which exist in tamizh pronunciation and transliteration.
Firstly, the history, then personal preferences, to complicate the issue!
Coming to the word vEngaDavan: the AzhvArs sang it as vEngaDavan, not vEnkatavan.
Composers (the 21st century ones too) cannot avoid sanskritised tamizh (with possible exceptions). Since most of the compositions are mostly on the gods, their names are in a song (not all names are in tamizh). Then their qualities. Again, most of them from sanskrit (dayai, karuNai).
The hymns of AzhvArs are replete with beautiful tamizh words and have words of sanskrit origin which blend in beautifully, assuming their own pronunciation (as with bayam).
Then come personal preferences; what one is used to?? what sounds more pleasing?
As for the aesthetics while listening to a song (not in speech), try this:
saraNam enRE sakti misai koNDa saliyAda anbinAl, avaL magizhndE aruLum isaivuRum paNbinai...all 's' sounds pronounced as in s(W)Ami and not as in SAradA.
I think while a word here or there in a line pronounced this way is not bad, more than one word in a line or two does not add to my listening pleasure.That is why I feel S is better with Sakti, Salippu, iSaivu etc. This way, without foot notes, you can distinguish among s, S and sh (sh which can be exclusively used for ushA, ShanmugA and so on).

This is not an expert opinion but of a mere user. As with consumer goods, sometimes the users have their experiences to go by.

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 13 Apr 2008, 21:59

We already have an evolved version of Tamizh, with all the distinctions between s, S, Sh etc. in place. It is called Malayalam.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 13 Apr 2008, 22:19

Ah-ah - very mature indeed

Arun

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 13 Apr 2008, 22:55

arasi,

Again I was not saying to go "sa" wheverer "Sa" - it was specifically for native tamizh words and again I was not trying to say "using Sa is wrong". I was saying to think that "Sa is better there than sa" for such native words is something I could not understand, and that we should not lose sight that "sa is what is applicable per sentamizh". For Sanskrit words, the Sanskrit pronounciation is what is generally approp - but IMO this is not a cut and dry issue. IMO, we must respect well ingrained morphs - we must respect how the language has absorbed an import. Also as Vidya said, we also must respect composer's intent in cases where it is clear. We need to ask e.g. will GKB combine "naTanam" with "vaDa kayilai" for prAsa? Shouldnt it be naDanam? Isnt naDanam as common in usage as naTanam in Tamil land? Then why do we insist that it should and must be only naTanam? Also, doesnt this also clearly indicates that even in spite pf Sanskrit origins, standard tamizh morphs clearly are what was in use?

But note that at the same time GKB uses ghaNTa vs kaNDu. Here,how can one sing the as gaNDA maNi ADudu (or kaNDA maNI ADudu)

here the prAsa is on N not T/D of K/G ). So here it shoulde ghaNTA.

So it is about as haphazard as you can get

Given all that I can certainly understand someone like Lakshman being extremely frustrated!

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 13 Apr 2008, 23:19

I also do not understand why the 'Sa vs sa' sound is even a point of debate for native words. Let us not bring in Sanskrit words or output of creative process, past and present. Those are separate matters.

That Prof. Hart's idea is something else. That will require massive reprogramming of the brains of millions of people

Think of our friend veRRi raised to the power 10 on the confusion scale even for native speakers. I am astonished that he is astonished that people want phonetic transliteration.

sowmya · Post by **sowmya** » 13 Apr 2008, 23:22

Whew! In the few hours since I checked this thread last, it has moved totally beyond my comprehension!!

It seems to be an absorbing discussion, but scares me nevertheless. I'm trying to learn Tamil, and having quite a bit of difficulty with it... Maybe sometime in the future, when I think I have learnt something about the language, I can come back to these posts and try to make sense out of it.. Anyway, thanks for the translations, and keep them coming, please. I'm already enjoying the song more than I used to.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 13 Apr 2008, 23:30

sowmya, I feared this kind of discussion will result in the reaction you had. If I am trying to relate to another language and see this kind of discussion, that will make me think about bolting for the door

. In forums like this, as in real life, this kind of detour is unavoidable. As you rightly said, enjoy the translations once Ravi and others keep them coming,

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 14 Apr 2008, 06:50

Sowmya,

Here is the next:

3.
kAviri ten peNNai pAlAru tamizh kaNDadOr vaigai porunai nadi ena
mEviya Aru palavODat tiru mEni shilirtta tamizhnADu (shentamizh)

Beholding (kaDadOr) the network (mEviya) of many (pala) rivers (Aru) that flow (ODa) bringing prosperity to the land, like the kAvEri, the South Pannaiyar (ten peNNai), pAlAru, and rivers (nadi) like (ena) the vaigai (the river associated with Madurai), and porunai (a river in the erstwhile cErA land) it is not surprising that our mother (tamizh nADu) feels so exhilarated, it feels like her skin (tiru mEni) has developed goose bumps (Silirtta)....

sowmya · Post by **sowmya** » 18 Apr 2008, 08:03

Thanks. Next one, please...

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 22 Apr 2008, 07:03

Sowmya,

The next one:

4. muttamizh mAmuni nILvaraiyE ninru moypurak kAkkum tamizhnADu shelvam ettanaiyuNDu bhuvimIdE avai yAvum paDaitta tamizhnADu (shentamizh)

This land of ours (tamizh nADu) is fortunate indeed that the great (mA) tamizh (muttammizh = the three different branches â€“ iyal, iSai, nAT(D)akam) sages (muni) stand (ninru) in a long (nIL) line (varaiyE) to protect (kAkkum) this beautiful (moy) land of bounty (puram), for tamizh nADu has been blessed with (paDaitta) each and every (avai yAvum) kind of wealth (S(c)elvam) that is available (ettanai uNDu) in/on (mIdE) this earth (bhuvi).

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 22 Apr 2008, 08:12

nIL varai I understand as the nIL (tall) varai (mountain)=the himalayA.
moymbuRa=with valor (moymbu=tOL vali)

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 22 Apr 2008, 11:26

IMHO, 'muttamizh mAmuni' would mean sage agastya and 'nILvarai' would mean Vindhyas.

sridhar_ranga · Post by **sridhar_ranga** » 22 Apr 2008, 16:42

Another strong possibility is that nILvarai here refers to "podhigai malai" - fits the context better, as sage agastya is still supposed to be residing there, acording to Tamil legend,

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 22 Apr 2008, 18:04

Thanks for the corrections!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 22 Apr 2008, 20:03

The poet's vision of limitlessness prompted me to think (without thinking of the context) of the himAlayA.
Of course, he would have had podigai on mind since the song is about tamizh naDu!

Member_First · Post by **Member_First** » 24 Apr 2008, 15:38

nIL varai to mean expanding mountain. In tamil 'nil varai', as a term gramatically called 'vinai thohai' ( would cover both present and future tenses) such as 'niLuhinDRa varai; 'nILum varai' --- (ever) expanding mountain.

There is a legend associated with Agastya (aga+staya) sage - On seeing mEru parvath(mountain), out of jealousy, the vindhya mountain started growing further and further in the North side, even obstructing sun, moon movements. Upon advice by Shiva, Agastya muni taught a lesson to vindhya mountain. Sage politely asked the mountain that he wanted to go to south india for which the vindhya mountain should lower down and also requested the mountain to be in the same lowered position till Agastya returns. It is believed that Agastha has not gone back to North side and the mountain still awaits the sage.

Down South, near vEdAraNyam( thiru marai kaaDu), there is a place called 'agasthiyan paLLi' which is named after the sage. In vEdAraNyam, Shiva-Parvathi maNa kOlam is seen, and it is believed that the Sage keeps enjoying/witnessing the 'darshan of Couple' and have stayed permanently !!!

The mEru parvath (mountain) is also praised by Saint TyAgarAja as ' mEru samAna dhIra' to indicate physical strength of Sri Raama in the 15th MK kriti.

V_ANNASAMY · Post by **V_ANNASAMY** » 24 Apr 2008, 17:28

MF,

varaiyaip paRTRi neen~gaL ezhudi
varainda karuthukkaL neeNDa kAlam
varai enadu manadil niRkkum. neeLum
varaikku varaiyaRai kuDamuniyAlE !!!

-va-

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 24 Apr 2008, 21:03

varaiyarai koDA muni, kuDa muniyumE!

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 07 May 2008, 01:02

CORRECTED VERSION OF C4.
muttamizh mAmuni nILvaraiyE ninru moypurak kAkkum tamizhnADu shelvam ettanaiyuNDu bhuvimIdE avai yAvum paDaitta tamizhnADu (shentamizh)

This land of ours (tamizh nADu) is fortunate indeed that the great (mA) tamizh (muttammizh = the three different branches â€“ iyal, iSai, nAT(D)akam) sage (muni) - agastiyar, stands (ninru) a top the podigai mountain (nILvariyE) to protect (kAkkum) this beautiful (moy) land of bounty (puram), for tamizh nADu has been blessed with (paDaitta) each and every (avai yAvum) kind of wealth (S(c)elvam) that is available (ettanai uNDu) in/on (mIdE) this earth (bhuvi).

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 07 May 2008, 01:23

Sowmya,

Here goes C 5:

5. nIlat tiraikkaDal OrattilE ninru nittam tavam sheyyum kumariyellai vaDa
mAlavan kunram ivaTriDaiyE pugazh maNDik kiDaikkum tamizhnADu (shentamizh)

This verse may be controversial, because it raises the issue of vENkaTam mudal kumari varai' bounds of TN. Be that as it may, in this verse, the mahAkavi tries to establish the geographical extent of his beloved tamizh nADu â€“ he says of tamizh nADu - the shores (OrattilE) of the blue (nIla) ocean (tiraikkaDal) where kanyAkumari stands (ninru), performing (Seyyum) penance (tavam) continually/daily (nittam) in the South, and the hill/mountain (kunram) of vishNU (mAl avan) â€“ aka tirupati in the North (vaDa) â€“ between (iDaiyE) these (ivaTru) bounds (ellai) one finds (kiDaikkum) our land, literally a collection of famed riches (pugzh maNDi) [1].

[1] â€“ maNDi â€“ a wholesale place where there is no dearth of things.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 07 May 2008, 04:31

maNDIK kiDakkum (as one would say koTTIK kiDakkiRadu!); one would find them in plenty

sridhar_ranga · Post by **sridhar_ranga** » 08 May 2008, 19:22

rshankar wrote:and porunai (a river in the erstwhile cErA land) ....

porunai is another name for tAmrabarani river

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 08 May 2008, 20:14

Thanks Sridhar...

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 08 May 2008, 22:56

And moi, sprung from tAmira varNik karai ancestors, missed it!
The kavi was one too, but he would not have minded donating it to CEra nADu!