Shyama Sastri's family

Sam Swaminathan · Post by **Sam Swaminathan** » 06 May 2008, 06:22

http://www.hindu.com/2008/05/06/stories ... 511100.htm

Is there any thing we can do to help them?

Regards..................Sam

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 06 May 2008, 06:45

If everytime an artiste sings SS kriti he can make a token contribution (call it Royalty) of say Rs 50/- to the Family, that should sustain them?
Something should be done by the musical community and Rasikas together.

Sathej · Post by **Sathej** » 06 May 2008, 10:05

Modern day artistes go on and on about copyrights and royalty and safeguarding what they sing-non-distribution of their recordings and what not. Wonder what would have happened if the likes of Shyama Sastri had talked of such things as paying them back if somebody sang their compositions! But then, they bothered little about such active marketing, after all. Rasikas and artistes (the latter taking some time off from their busy marketing) could do something to help out, maybe.
Sathej

knandago2001 · Post by **knandago2001** » 06 May 2008, 10:08

cmlover: A very thoughtful suggestion indeed! While I'm not very clear about the logistics, I wonder if it would be possible to set up a corpus - the interest accrued could then be used for helping out the family in the long term. Regardless of whether this is viable or not, please let me know how I can contribute.

Sathej · Post by **Sathej** » 06 May 2008, 10:17

The primary roadblock would be the logistics in such cases. The suggestions made seem good. Several Rasikas, including me, would be very willing to help.
Sathej

vvsundaram · Post by **vvsundaram** » 06 May 2008, 12:38

Dear Rasikas:

My name is V. V. Sundaram, and I am one of the volunteers who help run the Cleveland Thyagaraja Festival. I am also saddened by what I read.

The Cleveland Aradhana is currently planning on a concert built around the three swarajathis of Syama Sastry to be presented by the Sustaining Sampradaya group in the 2009 Cleveland Festival. We plan to request a donation of at least $100 from each of the selected participants towards establishing a fund to help Syama Sastry's descendants. We also plan to aggressively solicit other rasikas for their donation starting with the past attendees of our festival.

If you or any of your friends would like to donate towards this worthy cause, please write a check to Aradhana Committee with the words "Syama Sastry Family Fund" and mail it to the Aradhana Committee, 4 Cranberry Brook Drive, Millstone, NJ 07726 .

All donations will be gratefully acknowledged and if the individual permits, will be acknowledged in our website too. Please also note that your donations qualify for tax deduction.

The total amount collected and the disbursement procedures will be transparently shared with everyone through our web site.

Last December, I had an unique opportunity to take 16 of the Sustaining Sampradaya Group along with their parents to Thiruvarur, and all of us saw the sad state of the houses in which the Trinity lived. That we drive immense happiness through their music is undeniable, and I think along with that comes our duty to do what we can for their descendants.

Please write to me at [email protected] if you would like to help us in this task or if you have anything to communicate.

Thank you for your time.

rajumds · Post by **rajumds** » 06 May 2008, 13:20

Welcome to the forum.

Is there a way those from India can contribute to this noble cause.

prashant · Post by **prashant** » 06 May 2008, 13:24

I would echo rajumds's thought. I'd be happy to contribute if I could do it in INR.

vvsundaram · Post by **vvsundaram** » 06 May 2008, 13:41

If you would like to donate in Indian Rupees, please write a check in the name of Aradhana Committe, and mail it to 3 Royal Enclave, Adyar, Chennai 600 020. Thank you for your support.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 06 May 2008, 14:55

Shyarma Sastri died in 1827.

I'm not sure about music, but if it was literature (and in British law) his descendants would long since have ceased to receive royalties from their ancestor's work.

There has been property and business in the family. They have been unfortunate; many people are probably even less fortunate, an Indian farmer dies in despair every thirty minutes.

Sorry to be the meany here, but we cannot expect to live by whatever our ancestors did several generations ago, however famous or great.

Of course, if someone wants to help a poor family simply because they are a poor family, that is a different matter.

beginner · Post by **beginner** » 06 May 2008, 15:10

Is it possible to get their Chitlapakkam house address?

Sathej · Post by **Sathej** » 06 May 2008, 15:21

@Nick,
It is indeed a valid point raised. But then, its not merely the question of the family trying to sustain themselves today on the basis of their illustrious ancestor. It also has to do with the fact that all of the great man's compositions have been made available free for everyone to utilise and there are no doubts that artistes benefit a lot in different ways by singing them and Rasikas derive happiness. It only seems right that something is done in return.
Sathej

balusatya · Post by **balusatya** » 06 May 2008, 16:46

SKA.S.Rajam used to say (while he was asked to draw the image of SS )"SS raja madiri iruparam, pattu veshtithan kattuvaram".I am very saddened to read the plight and the picture of small boy with poonal and Rudraksham stern looking eye resembling SS' - meaningful questioning stare "Is this the gratitude you show to my descendants?"(although He is the last person to have expected-Mariyadaleruka nidush Prapula-O! Jagadamba).
I wish to join in contributing to this cause including educational assistance to the lad.First thing we may perhaps visit the place and find out what is required.

jukebox · Post by **jukebox** » 06 May 2008, 17:50

This is very sad indeed. Not to be disrespectful to the composer or his descendants, but I wonder how they ran into debts. Was it a business loss or was their property confiscated by the Indian govt. or the British Raj? Wasn't Syama Sastri in a lineage of temple priests? Don't the descendants of these priests also automatically get absorbed into the temple? Does anybody know more about this? The newspaper article, as is always the case of most Hindu news items, is very sketchy and cautious.

I would definitely love to contribute to any funds that are being collected. Some of my favorite compositions happen to be those of Syama Sastri. The musical richness and tranquility in them can only be felt and experienced.

Rajani · Post by **Rajani** » 06 May 2008, 17:57

Though Nick's point of view is perfectly understandable in today's context, there is a traditional maxim "guruvat guruputreshu" ( treat your guru's children as you would treat him/her). Apparently Swami Vivekananda used to treat Ramakrishna's brother's children with utmost respect and humility! Which is why we all feel saddened by this report and feel it is our duty to do something, SS being guru-like to all CM students and rasikas.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 06 May 2008, 18:16

shri sundaram - thanks for taking up this commendable effort. Our family will be more than happy to contribute.

Arun

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 06 May 2008, 18:23

Dear VVS
A warm welcome to the Forum with a great proposal. It is indeed heartening to note that you as well as the CAC would take an initiative in this matter. Knowing your untiring efforts for CM propogation in NA we can be confident that you will succeed in restoring quality of life to the descendants of CM greats starting with the Trinity (in fact the oldest among them!). Do please Format your proposal in consultation with CAC as well as CM Well-wishers in NA so that this grows into a project of helping the unfortunate families of those who have devoted their lives in the service of excellence in CM instead of using it to garner their nests. We owe it all to those selfless dedicated spirits.

You may also consider proposing to the performers at Cleveland to contribute a segment of their compensation to support the unfortunate families of illustrious CM contributors whose families are in need. It is a question of awareness. Once a small group of them are alerted they may act as triggers to awake awareness among the larger CM community in India.

This Forum is the right place to discuss the organizational issues.

Again I feel that 'people' should be the prime focus instead of renovations of buildings or constructing memorial halls as the finest tribute to the past CM greats.

Nick

While all kinds of charity is laudable there is something special which is done out of 'Gratitude' that is singular in the Indian Psyche. This is distinctly different from the Non-Hindu way of thinking. Among Hindus everybody is born with a debt to pay to Gods, Gurus (educators) and Parents (pit^Ri). Salvation is contingent on the fulfilment of these in-born debts. As inheritors of the Musical Wealth of the Trinity/Others too we are morally indebted to assist their descendents even minimally by way of a token Guru Dakshina for the gifts received.

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 06 May 2008, 18:32

Nick - perhaps its due to my Aussie upbringing, but I am totally with you on this one!

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 06 May 2008, 19:32

nick,

aren't we making a tacit assumption that people who feel like helping out here would not feel so about others who are in poverty and dont have illustrious lineage (like those poor farmers)? Even otherwise, why should we question someone who feels like helping here but not elsewhere? Isn't that better than helping in neither situation? In fact isnt that better than judging which of two poor families "deserve it better" and perhaps question people who are soliciting for, and thos inclined to help the "lesser deserving one" in our eye (not saying you are necessarily doing that - but your line of thinking generally leads in that direction).

People help out for various reasons. Perhaps we should leave it at that.

Arun

rajeeram · Post by **rajeeram** » 06 May 2008, 20:08

Sri VVS, thank you for taking this up and I would be happy to contribute.

Is it feasible to have some kind of an emergency relief fund that can help out in times of utmost need for the families of musicians? Does something like this already exist? It was really sad to note that the family did not have enough funds to perform the last rites of a family member.

Nick, I can totally see where you are coming from. I look at it as an extension of the rasikas community, to which I feel a sense of belonging thanks to this forum, providing some support for its musicians/composers and their kith and kin in times of need.

Adidaivam · Post by **Adidaivam** » 06 May 2008, 21:24

Why cant we start something practical to help them.. rather than discussing and discussing several points.. Please publish their address here each individual who want to help the Shyama Sastri's family can directly sent the help to that address. Hope this helps

mri_fan · Post by **mri_fan** » 06 May 2008, 21:55

Adidaivam,

I think it would be more feasible to conduct the fundraising through the Aradhana organization (or some other organization). WIth the money they raise, they may be able to set up some sort of formal trust of sorts . I believe we should still give them some privacy even as they need our help, and I think publishing their addresses might be a little too intrusive. I may be mistaken on this issue, but for that reason, I'd suggest working through some organization. I also don't know the safety of sending money via mail etc.

vigneshbal · Post by **vigneshbal** » 06 May 2008, 23:13

Hi all,

I accept Nick's views. I am whole heartedly willing to contribute for this cause in case a concrete mechanism of delivery and use is fixed. I feel we should not jump to conclusion on funds issue, because of two reasons.

1. Present economic condition of Syama shastri's family does not have any relevance with Syama shastri himself. Things happening now are some thing caused only after the demise of Syama shastri.. so if we help them now, then we are trying to be tooo unjust to millions of people around the world who also deserve help for the same reason.

2. I think none of us knew this before Hindu's report, and none of us have visited them, so we dont have any idea as to whether they are willing to accept monetary help. Money collection is slightly easier than sending it back in case they dont accept it.

I feel we should all help them live a good life on the basis of "self sustainability" than charity. So let us all put our head to do some thing which will help them improving their business than trying to helping them with direct money..

BTW.. Kudos to VVS for starting this initiative, I respect you initiatives.. Inspite of staying miles away from situ..

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 06 May 2008, 23:25

so if we help them now, then we are trying to be tooo unjust to millions of people around the world who also deserve help for the same reason

You cannot help everybody in the same boat - as you said there are millions. Besides, helping one does not mean being unfair to someone else. IMO, helping by itself is good - period. If we have to sit and try to think who needs more, am i doing the right thinig etc. many of us may end up doing only that - think and forget the act part. But one can always donate to different charity organizations for various causes.

Arun

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 06 May 2008, 23:30

I can appreciate the feelings of all here. I'd help my Guruji's familly; I too feel the need sometimes to pay back sometimes for various things that the world has given me.

Curious about how these things worked, I recall posting some time back in this (I think) forum a query as to how composers of carnatic music make a living. Western musicians get some payment every time their compositions are performed, every time they are broadcast on the radio.

I wondered if people like, for instance, BMK or LGJ actually get any cash from the performers who sing their tilanas, etc, on a regular basis. It seems they don't. Should there be a collection for their great, great (or something like that) grandchildren in two hundred years time? Won't do them much good.

The reality of this is that it is not Shyama Sastris family. It is some people who are descended from him and separated not even by decades but by generations and centuries. What they have done with their lives has nothing whatsoever to do with one particular ancestor in their family. They are not even (apparently) associated with the musical tradition.

Sorry, I will (and do) help any individual in need, at least towards their next meal, but I am not interested to know who their great grandparents were.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 06 May 2008, 23:35

point well made indeed.

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 07 May 2008, 01:05

http://home.att.net/~s-prasad/tyagaraja.htm
"At 18 years of age, Tyagaraja married Parvati, who died when he was only 23. He then married Kamalamba (sister of Parvati). They had a daughter named Sitamahalakshmi, through whom he had a grandson, who died progeniless. Thus we do not have any descendant of Saint Tyagaraja."

http://www.indianetzone.com/23/muthuswa ... mposer.htm
"He died on October 21 in 1835. He did not have any children, but his musical legacy was continued and propagated by his brother Baluswami's descendants."

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 07 May 2008, 01:07

Going back to Sam's original poser, it seems only appropriate that anyone who wishes to help them should be provided the necessary information to do this. Can a resident of Chennai obtain the details?

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 07 May 2008, 02:54

As we discuss this issue, at least 20,000 have perished due to the Burma cyclone and millions are homeless due to little fault of their own. Please consider donating to help these people.

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 07 May 2008, 11:53

mohan,
Unless you feel there is anything offensive about contributing for the descendants of SS, please do not offend others' sensibilities on the subject. Please exercise some restraint.

cienu · Post by **cienu** » 07 May 2008, 13:00

Extremely sad to read the article.

However what we need to keep at the back of our minds is that the descendants of Syama Sastry have not asked for assistance, financial or otherwise, inspite of the hardships they have been through.

Any help therefore in whatever form needs to be done with grace and with the family's consent. VVSundaram's start in this regard is commendable.

In another thread there was a discussion on the original painting of Syama Sastry with one of the decendants which was in urgent need of restoration. Possibly this could also be clubbed with the Sundaram initiative.

And yes VGV is right.

We need to be careful not to offend the sensibilities of others. While Nick and Mohan do hold a different viewpoint , one must appreciate that Nick has been careful not to hurt others's feelings.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 07 May 2008, 13:58

Well, I was worried that I had been a little forthright --- but that worry does not change my views, and nor do I think Mohan has been less tactful than me. I have a number of even more forthright views on this, that I have not committed to print!

It is very true, and I noticed the same, that there is no request voiced in that article, there is nothing that can be construed as begging in any way.

I have tried very hard to avoid comparison, or to suggest that any one cause is more worthy than other, or to surmise on the possible reasons for a family not having the money it one had, but it is hard not to. Particularly in the face of the current disaster that brought nothing but a few days of grey skies to Chennai and massive destruction and death to another country. The poster who remarked that we each choose our own causes, and cannot do everything is right. whether it be helping the neighbour, feeding the local dogs, taking in kittens, educating a child....

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 07 May 2008, 14:49

vgv - I think I have exercised a lot of constraint. Like Nick, I too have not committed my full views to print, considering the views of others.

Of course people are free to contribute to whatever cause they choose.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 07 May 2008, 15:46

nick H wrote:The poster who remarked that we each choose our own causes, and cannot do everything is right. whether it be helping the neighbour, feeding the local dogs, taking in kittens, educating a child....

Please DO NOT feed the local dogs. Instead donate the money to the local SPCA - there in 1 in velachery and 1 in besant nagar. Or adopt a local dog and raise it inside your premises. Otherwise:

1. They chase after cars, bikes and people at night
2. They have puppies that get run over by vehicles

Thank you.

cienu · Post by **cienu** » 07 May 2008, 16:44

mohan wrote:vgv - I think I have exercised a lot of constraint. Like Nick, I too have not committed my full views to print, considering the views of others.
Of course people are free to contribute to whatever cause they choose.

Well, this forum is one which is dedicated primarily to Carnatic Music. A proposal to help the descendants of SS is therefore a fair discussion on this forum.

Helping the victims of the Myanmar Cyclone is a noble task. But to juxtapose such a hypothetical question on a Syama Sastry thread and suggesting (albeit subtly) that an alternative cause is available to empty your pocket is not just in bad taste. It is unfair to the descendants of a legendary composer who have infact not even asked for help!

vsarmaiitm · Post by **vsarmaiitm** » 07 May 2008, 18:40

Mohan and Nick,
All those arguments of cyclone in Burma and street dogs is not relevant here.
As Cienu put it this is a forum for music and the point here is there are certain group of people
who feel for those mentioned in the report.
Those who feel for them will contribute and none of them asked for your suggestions !
Let us not bring in unnecessary arguments and counterarguments. It is waste of time and energy.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 07 May 2008, 18:43

who have infact not even asked for help!

Salient point.

But,

on a Syama Sastry thread

It is not a Syama Sastry thread: it has nothing to do with him whatsoever. It is about some people who just happen one-hundred-and-seventy-seven years after his death to belong to the same family.

I wonder how many other people do too? The journalist mentions a branch in Hyderabad, but gives no details; maybe they didn't suit his story line?

If three or four generations of a family can't get it together to support themselves, then to suggest supporting them because of a long-past relative makes no sense.

If the headline had read Family struggles for 150 years to maintain musical heritage I might be writing out the cheque instead of going on like this.

Suresh, good points about the dogs; we don't, actually --- we adopted the cat and kittens.

But, hey, as Mohan says, freedom is there.

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 07 May 2008, 18:51

Time to close this thread, perhaps?

I am reminded of the joke about how if you put two Jews together you will have a verbal duel in under 5 seconds. Seems it will take under 2 seconds for rasikas to get into an argument!

cienu · Post by **cienu** » 07 May 2008, 19:31

nick H wrote:
who have infact not even asked for help!
Salient point.
But,
on a Syama Sastry thread
If the headline had read Family struggles for 150 years to maintain musical heritage I might be writing out the cheque instead of going on like this.

Nick,

I somehow managed to trace the link below

http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?id=4748&p=1

If the family is still in possession of the Original Portrait of Syama Sastry, struggling to preserve the same, in spite of so many constraints, then I think, Nick, you should be writing the cheque already

kadambam · Post by **kadambam** » 07 May 2008, 20:30

nick H,

The whole concept of affirmative action and caste based reservations operate in the same manner, i.e. future generations benefit from the injustice caused initially. Not that Syama Sastri was subject to any kind of injustice or discrimination. But, carnatic music not until recent times, was not an ideal profession for leading a decent lifestyle, let alone luxurious life style. Syama Sastri or Shri.Tyagaraja did not compose kritis to 'earn a living', they lived like saints & their compositions are a means of livelihood for innumerous musicians, past and present.

When it comes to western music, we talk about copyright and royalty issues, but for carnatic music, it is always 'thenga mudi' and 'vethala paaku'. Syama Sastri's family definitely takes credit in some form or the other in allowing the composer in Shri.Sastri to florish. We don't have the least amount of gratitude to recognize and respect the contributions of these legends and when it comes to light that one of their decendants are in dire straits, we are debating whether it is right to support the family or evaluate whether they deserve the support.

If your personal choice is to exercise restraint and not support this worthy cause, then you have no right to insult the descendants of a family. Whether it is U.S or India, leaders are made just because they are descendants of a family (irrespective of their qualification), but only when it comes to selfless contributions of these greats, we are judgemental. Unfortunately, it is not only Shri.Syama Sastri, but even other legends like Subramania Bharati or Kamaraj faced severe hardships.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 07 May 2008, 20:36

To me, what I am saying is common sense and reasonabilty.

Others, no doubt, have exactly the same view of their different views.

We've shared our views --- and that is the purpose of a forum.

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 08 May 2008, 02:26

It seems we are seeing a different (and more, shall we say, active) side of Nick these days.
( See here to see what I mean: http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=80489#p80489 )

Quite different from the laid-back version of yore...

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 08 May 2008, 02:40

Curious reflection! But others see things in us before we see them ourselves, of course.

Actually, I thought I used to more (or should I say even more) inclined to get hot under the collar about stuff than I am these days.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 08 May 2008, 03:00

Tropical vigour

Sam Swaminathan · Post by **Sam Swaminathan** » 08 May 2008, 06:21

It would appear that there are people ,who regularly contribute in this forum, seem to think that this family does not deserve to be helped, for after all, they must have brought up this unfortunate situation upon themselves by their (in)action. So be it....and you deserve the due respect for your views. I would then appeal to those, having made their opinions known, to stay away from this particular thread and stop making any further negative remarks on the cause trying to justify their position. And those who believe that this family should be helped carry on the discussions and come to a conclusion as to how we can go about it....

appu · Post by **appu** » 08 May 2008, 07:15

Well said Sam, Mr. VVS has provided us a vehicle to move forward for this cause. Rasikas do what you feel right.

Nick H and Mohan, your views are appreciated and accepted. Like Sam said do stay away from this thread and let those who share same views continue the discussion.

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 08 May 2008, 07:16

Best way is to get their address so willing rasikas can send their contribution

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 08 May 2008, 11:02

Sri Sundaram, this is a laudable initiative and I will gladly do my bit...Nick/Mohan may have valid points but the way I look at it - one's charity is determined partly by one's emotions...a disaster in India (or Burma for that matter) would evoke stronger reactions than one in South America...when I heard about the Mumbai train blasts I almost broke down because I used to be among them at one point in time...

As a music lover, therefore, my contribution in this case would not be because of moral outrage but because of my love for the Syama Sastri and my personal debt to his musical genius

gn.sn42 · Post by **gn.sn42** » 08 May 2008, 11:25

Sam Swaminathan wrote:It would appear that there are people ,who regularly contribute in this forum, seem to think that this family does not deserve to be helped, for after all, they must have brought up this unfortunate situation upon themselves by their (in)action.

That's not it at all, That's not what they said, at all.
For example, nick H said:

nick H wrote:Of course, if someone wants to help a poor family simply because they are a poor family, that is a different matter.

Sam Swaminathan wrote:...stay away from this particular thread and stop making any further negative remarks on the cause trying to justify their position.

I don't see any negative remarks here, just an exchange of opinions - and isn't that what this forum is about?

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 08 May 2008, 13:27

I have finished.

What is the point of trying to persuade someone that one thing is right or one thing is wrong, we all have our views.

But Sam, much as I respect you and your contributions, no, I will not accept any invitation to keep quiet!

We have discussed various issues, but I'm not going to discuss whether or not we should have discussed them!