Amplification of tampura in our cutcheries.

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 12 Sep 2008, 11:34

Quite many concerts I listen and I dont listen to the tampura at all..
Usually it is hidden somewhere far away from the mic. The sound of tampura enhances the listening pleasure. It is easy to make out notes when the tampura is amplified. Otherwise is strictly goes on the basis of how familiar are you with our system of music. sometimes the music when it gets cacophonous with all the sorrounding sounds and with many instruments like kanjeera, morsing, etcetera one tampura sound gets completely indistinctive.. I wish our musicians give more importance to tampura sound in a way that we listen to it clearly throughout the concert. It is not something that they would not know . but only a wish.

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 12 Sep 2008, 15:02

For the concerts we organise in Sydney the sound engineer asks the artist if he can put a mic to the tambura/electronic tambura. Unfortunately some artistes prefer that the tambura does not get a separate microphone.

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 12 Sep 2008, 15:14

that is a pity. And I have witnessed it myself. I feel that some deliberately avoid it.

mridangamkid · Post by **mridangamkid** » 12 Sep 2008, 16:16

I always thought it was meant mainly for the artist... not the audience, hence why the audience doesn't need to listen to it. But then again, what do I know ?

I think it's more of the fact that we as a culture alltogether are used to listening without hearing the tambura. If some rndom concert, we can all of a sudden hear a tambura, to me at least, someting won't seem right and the concert may not sound as good.

Just taking a guess here though, I really don't know if what I said even made sense

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 12 Sep 2008, 20:00

mridangamkid,
You are back home, I guess. Have a good school year and lots of mrudangamtime too!
Many years ago, when I was your age, we heard the sound of the tambura more than we do now in concerts. The audible playing of it added a special aura and filled the pauses with a serene sound...

cienu · Post by **cienu** » 12 Sep 2008, 23:10

We did discuss this topic though not in so much detail in an earlier thread as below (#10)

http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?id=4968

While amplification is not compulsary, the point to keep in mind is :
1) The voice/instrument should merge not drown in Shruti.
2) Lapses in Shruti will be prominently highlighted.

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 13 Sep 2008, 14:07

My own preference is for the tambura to have a dominant presence on stage - both visually and aurally...

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 13 Sep 2008, 16:21

Mine is that it is a part of the music and should be heard.

It is often too loud, and that is apart of the whole acoustics/sound-management issue that we visit very regularly.

There is absolutely no excuse for it being too loud on studio recordings --- but it quite frequently is.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 13 Sep 2008, 20:08

Vijay,
I am with you. A tambura which has a visual as well as audible presence adds to the ambiance of a concert.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 13 Sep 2008, 20:14

Look at what is mast-headed on our forum to know what I mean!

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 13 Sep 2008, 21:16

Arasi I could not get your last comment. What is written in our forum about what???

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 14 Sep 2008, 02:39

Not written, but portrayed!

And I'm not sure that I have ever heard a real tampura amplified.

We did a thread on this recently, didn;t we? With some excellent input from a member called Martin?

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 14 Sep 2008, 03:20

IMHO, some one, who is not used to tampura sound, compares it to electric razor. It acts as a distraction for them.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 14 Sep 2008, 03:32

Yes indeed, Nick. And Uday too, in Dutch!

thenpaanan · Post by **thenpaanan** » 14 Sep 2008, 18:17

arasi wrote:Vijay,
I am with you. A tambura which has a visual as well as audible presence adds to the ambiance of a concert.

Interestingly, in all the Hindustani concerts I have been to, the tambura was very loud and meant to be heard on its own (sometimes with the mic but frequently without). Clearly our north Indian compatriots like it nice and loud and very obvious. Why is it that we prefer it soft and unobtrusive? In fact in most of our elders' concerts as far as I can recall, one had to struggle to hear the tambura even during the silences between pieces as if it was meant only for the musicians. Come to think of it the first time and after that the only time for a long while one heard a clear and loud tambura was from MSS. One can hear that even in her records. The other artists (not counting contemporary artists) who would have an audible tambura were MLV and then violin soloists. Does it have something to do with aesthetics or voice insecurity?

I have occasionally heard even some of our famous ones "grope" at some point for the sruti. I asked one such artist about it and he said he could not hear the sruti on the stage no matter how hard the tambura was being strummed. I did not think of it then but in the context of this thread the simple solution would have been to mic the tambura so he would hear it on the monitor. But then mic'ing the tambura will also make sruti lapses audible to the audience. I guess it is a matter of risk tolerance.

-Then Paanan

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 14 Sep 2008, 18:47

Clearly our north Indian compatriots like it nice and loud and very obvious.

possibly one of the main reasons why HM purists dont move across the border to appreciate what is a very closely allied stream.At least that is true with all of my uncles.(What kind of music do you call it...One which I cant hear the tanpura ...they all groan)

http://boomp3.com/listen/c0y6i6l16_6/tanpura
they all like it this way

These electronic devices only make it worse.It is far more difficult to shut down the output of a tambura, I guess.

Quite useful for nervous vocalists though,who like to keep twiddling it...,:D
CM and Tanpura .. Just Lip service...

BTW I find that boomp3.com is not yet popular here.A wonderful tool.Just took this opportunity to introduce it here.Thanks to ramakriya.Googling on DRS and Boomp3 may lead you to some tracks of DRS singing his own compositions..

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 14 Sep 2008, 18:51

I think if we discount occassional minor lapses from the musicians, they will be delighted to present loud and clear music with a loud and clear drone. If we take them too seriously, they will make their own music hazy with ultra-frequent oscillations and lower the drone volumes.

To me the magic of hearing one correct note cleary played with a clear drone can just make a concert!

I am left especially longing for the drone to be louder when the musician sings or plays the tAra sa as a pause in the AlApanai.

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 15 Sep 2008, 00:05

That's true Srikant....and in HM the vocalist play around the tara shadjam before bringing about the resolution is just beautiful!

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 15 Sep 2008, 00:17

BTW lovely clip...the atmosphere created by the tanpuras is so magical...BJ spends almost 10 minutes just about reaching panchamam! Is this Puriya Kalyan?

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 15 Sep 2008, 06:52

Is this Puriya Kalyan?

Yes .He sang at Music Academy in the early 80s.I was on the dias just a few feet away from him.
That was the first time i ever had a look FROM the stage and the scene was unbelievable.MA looks so wonderful from there.Our own small piece of Austria here in Chennai.The front row was the Whos who of the Art world from Chennai.
It feels like yesterday.A maroon shawl wrapped tightly around his legs , eyes closed and the two palms waving to the three volunteers with the tanpuras - ":Our jor se "
Before the screen went up , I was left gasping , How will a human voice ever escape this drone and make itself heard.How could it escape this kind of a gravitational pull and soar into space ?
I had the answers very soon .The effort that his vocal chords could put , it was simply NOT HUMAN.
Asura Like, in fact.
Care for the rest of the track ?

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 15 Sep 2008, 09:33

Y not coolkarni, we are generous in our acceptance

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 15 Sep 2008, 10:48

Must have been a fantastic experience Coolji - yes it does look very special from the stage...the only problem is sitting cross-legged for 3 hours (and to think of the performers!)...

Waiting eagerly for the rest...

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 15 Sep 2008, 12:25

http://boomp3.com/listen/c0yzblfrb_l/a- ... in-concert

a fine example ofv amplification (or recording ?), decades ago

I will get back later in the HM SECTION With the BJ TRACK

kmrasika · Post by **kmrasika** » 15 Sep 2008, 14:19

Coolkarni SIr, that was a very nice pUriya kalyAN. The tanpura did sound a little loud(and sometimes very distracting from the lovely rendition of the vocalist). I have noticed hindustAni musicians tend to have more than one tanpura in each concert(guess this means they want to be very Shruti compliant!). Also, what is the name of that instrument that the vocalist holds and plucks in their right hand (like the one Pandit Jasraj holds in the picture below)? Even the portraits of svAti tirunAl depict him holding something like a miniature tanpura in his hand.

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 15 Sep 2008, 14:33

Swarmandal
Now GB Rajashekhar will writhe again in pain at the memory of not knowing what happened to the swarmandal with Bade Ghulam Ali Khan boldly etched on it (you can see that it the youtube videos too) which was gifted to GNB.
http://boomp3.com/listen/c0z3u3e6e_9/bade-swarmandal
here he is going from yaman to hamsadhwani in the bangalore ramanavami concert

Kumar Gandharv used to tune three Tanpuras (I have read somewhere).
That used to remind me of my early studies in metrology of perfect flatness.Two surfaces being matched to each other would not qualify for perfect flatness.Both of them would have to be perfectly matched with a third flat surface.Only then one could conclude that all the three were perfectly flat surfaces.
KG attempted something analogous to that , I Guess.The article (or chapter in a book Iforget which) went on to say that KG believed that the door to awareness of the ultimate was to be found in this tuning exercise-some sort of a difficult but secretive passage.I remember reading it when i was very young and hence the romanticism of that passage has stayed with me.
I will later play a small bit from an old Mysore Nagraj Manjunath concert where it is such a delight to hear the drone .
For Now back to Vijay and his sandhyaraga
http://boomp3.com/listen/c0z39gpcr_g/bh ... n-forvijay

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 16 Sep 2008, 06:35

will later play a small bit from an old Mysore Nagraj Manjunath concert where it is such a delight to hear the drone

http://boomp3.com/listen/c0ztnt9lj_o/mys-nagraj-manj

rajeeram · Post by **rajeeram** » 16 Sep 2008, 08:14

coolkarniji, Wonderful clips indeed, especially BJ! Thank you.

We are looking forward to a Mysore brothers concert in our neck of the woods this weekend.

Abhishek Raghuram had a separate mike for the tanpura, albeit electronic, in his concert here during Spring.

tkb · Post by **tkb** » 16 Sep 2008, 08:36

We use to connect the electronic tambura to the amplifier of the keyboard with a separate connection. This feedback monitor or the speaker's output is used as output for both keyboard and tambura.

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 16 Sep 2008, 11:33

Many thanks sir

kmrasika · Post by **kmrasika** » 16 Sep 2008, 12:48

Thank you, Coolkarni Sir for the clarification of the instrument. It is a sort of drone then, right? Thank you for the wonderful clips!

martin · Post by **martin** » 18 Sep 2008, 02:31

If I may join in with some observations, though they be personal and biased, are nevertheless relevant to the subject of this thread:
In the years that I was active as a tambura-artist on behalf of Indian artists visiting the Netherlands and surrounding countries, I have met many artists, seen many theaters and their soundtechnicians and tasted their audiences and the response created.
Given all the things that can turn out wrong, I'm very lucky to have witnessed many beautiful concerts when every small detail contributed to a greater whole, when all the people that mattered were focused on doing their job right in service to the music.
Taking a step back I would say that today one can come across a variety of musicians, some of them are committed to high ideals concerning purity of tone and intonation, who make high demands on themselves and require also high quality tone-purity from tanpuras and percussion and a sound technician who is both sufficiently capable as well as artistically sensitive. This is the ideal situation but not often found. For the reverse situation, again the contributing factors are manifold.
Nowadays many musicians do not care enough or are incapable of properly handling tanpuras, or, even worse, to sing or play really in tune with a good tanpura. This is of course a very good reason to turn up the digital tanpuras with their less defined sound and not have the tanpuras amped or even miked. This was clearly the case with some artists I met, who were not comfortable with a perfect tanpura after having used digitalia for so long, so the tanpura is suppressed and they sail by the lesser waves of their boxes. Usually, (personal and biased POV) I find these concerts boring as they don't get through to a level that satisfies my ears and other senses. It seems more focused on form than on content, pyrotechnics against deeply felt tones.Then again, some technicians have their own ideas how an ensemble of musicians should be amplified. Some really believe that the tanpura should not be heared by the audience, which is apert nonsense, it's like pulling the paper out under the letters. The soundscape as made by the group should be left in it's original proportions. Silly and saddening but these people exist and they're out there doing it.
So it comes down to a certain mentality which is seemingly at odds with tonal purity, devotion to Sarasvati. It is saddening to see that glorious ICM is loosing ground to Modernisms. This generation wants instant satisfaction and tuning tanpuras is too much of an effort. What I am afraid of is that this will slowly hollow out from the inside - stemrot in the Tree of Life - some cherished and in my ears essential aspects of tonal purity in ICM, without wich it is not really whole.

girish_a · Post by **girish_a** » 19 Sep 2008, 22:41

Hello Martin,
Your comments on the Tanpura in this and other posts have been nothing short of masterly. Do you think you could run a couple of short "Tanpura workshops" wherein you can share your specialized knowledge and help aspiring musicians understand its mysteries and secrets? I think such workshops would be extremely useful and interesting, and may help create awareness among young and upcoming musicians and students.

Thanks!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 20 Sep 2008, 02:37

Martin,
Yes, if only the skill for playing the tamburA is stressed by teachers along with other aspects of learning in CM that they impart to their students!
Granted, portability is difficult, but that should not be a reason for the new students of CM or their teachers to do away with the instrument. I have heard that some prominent musicians of the day miss the sounds of their tamburA when they perform in places other than Chennai and are unable get hold of a tambUrA player.
The older set of players in Chennai can also give lessons in playing the instrument. Teachers can ask their serious young students to practice with the tambUrA at home so that its nAdam can pervade their consciousness. In my childhood days, I disliked the sound of the sruti box (which incidentally sounded far better than the electronic kind of today, at least, to me). The look of the tambUrA, its weighty, yet comforting feel on your person, and above all, its soothing buzz in your ears elevates your your enjoyment of music with 'deeply felt tones', as you aptly describe it...

martin · Post by **martin** » 20 Sep 2008, 05:14

girish_a wrote:Hello Martin,
Do you think you could run a couple of short "Tanpura workshops" wherein you can share your specialized knowledge and help aspiring musicians understand its mysteries and secrets?

I wrote about several aspects concerning tuning and the supporting but essential function of the tanpura, hoping that this may contribute a little bit keeping practical knowledge alive. I also wrote down practical tips in the following:
http://forums.chandrakantha.com/viewtop ... ing#p24815
Of course writing about it is not the best way to share this knowledge and anything as complex as this is learned best by direct example. But again, I hope it helps.

For more information follow the link:
http://www.martinspaink.mimemo.net/
For accessing an article about fine-tuning of tanpura's, follow:
http://www.medieval.org/music/world/martin_est.html
or at Ashish Sankrityayan's Dhrupad-website:
http://www.dhrupad.info/articles.htm
debate on tanpura: http://omenad.net/articles/tanpura_debate.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tambura#India

CC · Post by CC » 25 Sep 2008, 10:22

Let us first ask the question: is there a tambura in any Western music concerts?

No, there isn't one. And the reason is Western music is based on a fixed frequency for the adhara shadja.

Thus, the real reason for a tambura in an Indian music concert is to remind the musician the frequency of the adhara shadja he has chosen to use that day.

Indian musicians are given the indulgence to choose their basic sruthi. Perhaps 90% of the musicians won't make it to the concert stage if they are told that A is 440Hz and they had better train their voice to sing with that frequency setting the entire octave.

I have listened to a lot of old timers on tape. On the tapes, the tambura cannot be heard at all. Yet, I have no difficulty noticing lapses in sruthi... and I consider myself tone-deaf!

In the old days, there was just one tambura behind the vocalist. They used to have a "full bench" of musicians on the stage including a violinist, mridangam, ghatam, khanjira, morsing, and perhaps even konnakkol or dholak. All these artists listened to that one tambura to keep their instruments in tune with the vocalist and they had no problem doing that.

The first problem was the import of the Meeraj (North Indian) tambura with a huge resonating chamber. It produces a greater volume that the traditional South Indian tambura.

Then came that abomination called "electronic sruthi box". This is an offence against God and Man. It produces a volume of sound that can be adjusted by the vocalist and he/she tends set it at a level where it sounds like a million angry bees are attacking a person who has disturbed their hive.

In the last couple of years, I have been recording various artists using digital recorders. Every single recording has an unacceptably loud sound of the "electronic tambura".

I have set the recorder on the stage or mounted on a mike stand and set it close to the vocalist. It doesn't make any difference.

The vocalist usually trots out the excuse that if he/she uses only the regular tambura, the violinist is unable to hear the sruthi. I checked with one violinist who said that it was far more difficult with both a tambura and the electronic abomination since it is difficult to know which one to base the violin on; because, either the tambura is being strummed by an inexpert player and it gets out of tune or the electronic abomination gets out of tune because of drift due to the electronic circuits becoming warmer as time goes on. My advice to the vocalist is: check with your accompanying artists.

The interesting thing is that when I give a copy of the recording to the main artist, the usual complaint is that the volume of the sruthi is too loud! Guess what? The audience had to put up with that for the duration of your concert!

As if a single elctronic abomination is not enough, we now have artists playing the basic sruthi from an iPod. Just what we need! Two tamburas, an iPod, and an electronic abomination! Why the hell do you need a violinist on stage?

If any artist thinks that this may prevent the unauthorised distribution of their concerts, let me just say one thing. Nobody, absolutely nobody, has come up to me and asked me for a copy of any concert; and that goes for all the top-ranking musicians today. That ought to disabuse you of that notion.

A vocalist needs two things to be a successful musician: a good voice and a good ear. If you all want to ruin your own hearing by setting the volume of the drone high, be my guest. I will probably start staying outside the suditorium to see if I can actually hear less of the drone and some of the music.

If the musicians feel that they are merely adopting modern technology, let them go the whole hog. Get feedback through earphones. I would much rather accept a wire snaking up the ear of each artist on stage rather than see a bunch of electronic noisemakers on stage.

vk · Post by vk » 25 Sep 2008, 10:58

Here is a link to music induced hearing loss. I am sure there are many more out there on the net. http://www.uic.edu/sph/glakes/harts/HAR ... snoise.txt.

As CC says the shruit box volume is very high in a concert. Same goes with accompaniments like mrudangam, ghatam, violin and tenpoora.

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 25 Sep 2008, 11:02

CC, nice post. I particularly agree with you on the electronic sruthi box - your analogy is very apt!

On the volume, though, I it comes down to personal taste. I like a loud tambura - of course what is loud is a matter of debate in itself - but I find the amplification of the drone in HM far more appealing that the reticence of the south indian tambura. The twang of the tanpura imparts a certain electricity to the atmosphere, especially when the artiste spins out a slow alaap or vilambit.

prashant · Post by **prashant** » 25 Sep 2008, 11:27

I hate the electronic box myself, but feel the iPod tambura, especially a good quality studio recording is a very good support. Between an inexperienced tambura artiste manhandling my carefully-tuned tambura, and an iPod recording of a soothingly played tambura, I would pick the iPod any day.

cienu · Post by **cienu** » 25 Sep 2008, 11:33

CC wrote:Then came that abomination called "electronic sruthi box". This is an offence against God and Man. It produces a volume of sound that can be adjusted by the vocalist and he/she tends set it at a level where it sounds like a million angry bees are attacking a person who has disturbed their hive.

I particularly liked this one

This is where the Tambura scores over an electronic Sruthi Box.

Whereas the volume from the Tambura cannot go beyond a certain level, the Sruthi Box can be amplified by the artist at random.
Secondly, performers sometimes raise the volume of the Sruthi box when the voice is uncooperative in the hope that this will mask apaswaras if any, not realising that the result will be just the contrary, ie, lapses in Sruthi Sudham will be all the more exposed.

prashant · Post by **prashant** » 25 Sep 2008, 11:54

CC wrote:Indian musicians are given the indulgence to choose their basic sruthi.

It is not an indulgence. It is the fundamental basis of the Indian music system. Western musicians are given the 'indulgence' to build up a repertoire of static pieces, without having to respond to audience requests, indulge in breakneck manodharma in every concert, and ceaselessly burnish their repertoire [thanks to the howling hordes on the internet complaining that Sanjay sang a similar list in Mumbai to the one he did in Madison]. I do not believe the two systems can be compared in this way.

CC wrote:Perhaps 90% of the musicians won't make it to the concert stage if they are told that A is 440Hz and they had better train their voice to sing with that frequency setting the entire octave.

What would be the purpose of such a ridiculous exercise? We had musicians with thaggu shrutis like Sri MDR, powerful-voiced musicians like Sri GNB, musicians with 'unconventional' projection like Sri SSI. The range of shrutis brings diversity to our music. The impact of MDR singing mandra phrases in bhairavi at his shruti is as much part of the joy in CM as hearing MS Amma hit the deck effortless in kAmbhOji.

CC wrote:In the old days, there was just one tambura behind the vocalist. They used to have a "full bench" of musicians on the stage including a violinist, mridangam, ghatam, khanjira, morsing, and perhaps even konnakkol or dholak. All these artists listened to that one tambura to keep their instruments in tune with the vocalist and they had no problem doing that.

Very valid point

CC wrote:In the last couple of years, I have been recording various artists using digital recorders. Every single recording has an unacceptably loud sound of the "electronic tambura".

Unacceptably loud to whom? I have done the same thing with very different results from yours. I would think this is a subjective issue which cannot be generalized.

CC wrote:The vocalist usually trots out the excuse that if he/she uses only the regular tambura, the violinist is unable to hear the sruthi. I checked with one violinist who said that it was far more difficult with both a tambura and the electronic abomination since it is difficult to know which one to base the violin on; because, either the tambura is being strummed by an inexpert player and it gets out of tune or the electronic abomination gets out of tune because of drift due to the electronic circuits becoming warmer as time goes on. My advice to the vocalist is: check with your accompanying artists.

Great point. This is the definitive argument for doing away with the electronic tambura. With an iPod recording, at least one doesn't have to deal with voltage-linked pitch variations.

CC wrote:Nobody, absolutely nobody, has come up to me and asked me for a copy of any concert; and that goes for all the top-ranking musicians today. That ought to disabuse you of that notion.

Perhaps you're attending the wrong concerts, CC?

CC wrote:A vocalist needs two things to be a successful musician: a good voice and a good ear.

Can someone quantify what is a 'good voice'? Is KVN's voice a 'good voice'? Is MDR's voice a 'good voice'. Is Alathur Sivasubrahmanya Iyer's a 'good voice'? Is Govinda Rao's a 'good voice'? Is SSI's a 'good voice'? Is Sanjay's a 'good voice'? Is MSS's a good voice? This is what gets my goat sometimes. We are privy to what I believe is the most broad-minded musical system in the world. I could think of no other system that could accommodate all the above artistes in one framework. Must we narrow in this way the wide latitude that CM gives us?

CC wrote:Get feedback through earphones. I would much rather accept a wire snaking up the ear of each artist on stage rather than see a bunch of electronic noisemakers on stage.

This is already being done, CC. You're behind the curve!

Thank you for a very thought-provoking post and I hope you will take my responses to your post in the cordial spirit in which they are meant.

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 25 Sep 2008, 16:56

cc
I'm not trying to turn this into a slugfest, but I don't agree with much of what you've said. Prashant has already voiced some of my objections, I might be repeating them in different words.
- Uday

CC wrote:Let us first ask the question: is there a tambura in any Western music concerts? No, there isn't one. And the reason is Western music is based on a fixed frequency for the adhara shadja.

Actually, quite the opposite. There's no "need" for a tampura in western music because it's an entirely different system of music with an entirely different evolutionary history and it bears very little analogous resemblance to Carntic music except in the very broadest of terms. It is a system based on harmony, counterpoint, modulation, etc., where the tonic (which is a remote analogue to "AdhAra" shadja) is changing constantly.

Perhaps what you meant was, they use "absolute" frequencies to calibrate their instruments. Hence a piano's A above middle C is 440Hz and so's the clarinet's and so's the violin's. I don't need to explain why good calibration standardization is required between various fixed-pitch instruments. If we didn't have that, orchestration would be a nightmare. But the use of absolute frequency calibration is in India too, in fact everywhere where music is played. After all, we need some standard way to calibrate our instruments and communicate with one another our approximate pitch ranges ! Thus we have 1 kattai (C) at 262Hz (and it's octaves), 5 kattai (G) at 393Hz and so on.

CC wrote:Thus, the real reason for a tambura in an Indian music concert is to remind the musician the frequency of the adhara shadja he has chosen to use that day.

No sir, that's not the reason. Musicians can sing effective enough without a tampura too - haven't you heard lec-dems, prayers, in car rides, etc. ? They don't need a "reminder", especially after years of singing at the same pitch. So the real purpose of the tampura, when properly tuned, is that it adds a special, "classical", professional, fine dimension to pitch discrimination. This level of pitch discrimination is not needed for light music or western music (classical or pop). Of course, often it is also not needed (or more precisely, heeded) for Carntic music

.

CC wrote:Indian musicians are given the indulgence to choose their basic sruthi. Perhaps 90% of the musicians won't make it to the concert stage if they are told that A is 440Hz and they had better train their voice to sing with that frequency setting the entire octave.

It's not an indulgence. Might you be suffering from a misconception about the basis of our music ? Also, I have no idea what the phrase "sing with that frequency setting the entire octave" means. Are you saying sing ALL notes at the same frequency ? .That doesn't make sense.

CC wrote:I have listened to a lot of old timers on tape. On the tapes, the tambura cannot be heard at all. Yet, I have no difficulty noticing lapses in sruthi... and I consider myself tone-deaf!

Not in my experience. Many old timers' tapes have loud tampuras including of those musicians that went off shruti like ARI and GNB. In fact, an audible tampura greatly soothes shruti lapses on the part of the vocalist, although conventional wisdom (rather misconception), especially among musicians, is that it would highlight the lapses. This is the secret of the masters that contemporary vocalists should remember - keep the tampura perfectly tuned and loud enough and one's own shruti lapses will be greatly mitigated and the overall musical experience will be enhanced. This is a brahma rahasya

.

CC wrote:In the old days, there was just one tambura behind the vocalist. They used to have a "full bench" of musicians on the stage including a violinist, mridangam, ghatam, khanjira, morsing, and perhaps even konnakkol or dholak. All these artists listened to that one tambura to keep their instruments in tune with the vocalist and they had no problem doing that.

Quite true. And the point is ?

CC wrote:The first problem was the import of the Meeraj (North Indian) tambura with a huge resonating chamber. It produces a greater volume that the traditional South Indian tambura.

It is true that the meeraj tampura produces greater volume, like the sitar. Firstly I don't see that as a problem and secondly I've not seen ANY south Indian musician execept Neyveli Santhanagopalan use it. And it adds exquisitely to the concert experience. More power to Shri NSG. I don't know what "problem" a meeraj tampura can cause ?! It is a wonderful thing. You're in the dark, sir.

CC wrote:Then came that abomination called "electronic sruthi box". This is an offence against God and Man. It produces a volume of sound that can be adjusted by the vocalist and he/she tends set it at a level where it sounds like a million angry bees are attacking a person who has disturbed their hive.

This is neither true nor funny. Actually the latest models of radel are rather nice and perfect for practice and circumstances where real tampuras and tampura artistes are unavailable. If every musician could find a Martin behind him, we wouldn't be talking about this. However, under the circumstance, the electronic shruti box is a wonderful thing.

CC wrote:since it is difficult to know which one to base the violin on; because, either the tambura is being strummed by an inexpert player and it gets out of tune or the electronic abomination gets out of tune

This is quite true. This is the responsibility of the main artiste. If he/she is shruti challenged, then he/she is best off using ONLY the electronic tampura. Even if it drifts slightly over the course of time, the violinist and mridangist can readily adjust their instruments to it. ALL instruments, including the venerable tampura drift, and there''s nothing wrong with that. Instrumentalist constantly adjust for small shruti drifts, including that of their own instrument.

CC wrote:If you all want to ruin your own hearing by setting the volume of the drone high, be my guest.

The electronic tampura cannot ruin the ear! I am willing to wager my life on that - prove this to me and I will drop dead in a grand public ceremony

. On the other hand, electronic amplification, your favorite pastime, has the potential to ruin the ear.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 25 Sep 2008, 18:25

Uday_Shankar wrote:This level of pitch discrimination is not needed for light music or western music (classical or pop). Of course, often it is also not needed (or more precisely, heeded) for Carntic music .

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 25 Sep 2008, 18:32

Arun
Could I request you to write a small paragraph explaining tonic music, the role of tonic in WM, AdhAra shadja in ICM, etc...It might be useful for many.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 25 Sep 2008, 20:37

Great thread to read, our experts taking part in it...

Uday,
What you say about AriyakkuDi is so true. Just the other day, his name came up in conversation. We marveled--even his drifting away from the Sruti had its own charm and added a special something to his breezy singing! This does not mean that others need to emulate him in this.
Whether it was basic pakka vAdyam or a full bench, I recall hearing the soothing tambUrA all along in those live vintage concerts...

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 25 Sep 2008, 21:45

Uday - I cannot think of anything coherent at this moment that would help here.

Just some quick spur-of-the-moment thoughts.

I think originally (as in when it came to being I guess 400-500 years ago) tampura may have been to establish a reference point, but obviously it has gone way way beyond that. The way our music (CM and HM) has evolved, it does establish an essential background "score" or "ambience" - owing to its extremely rich harmonic sound, which has a way of "spreading" around the room (and thus one's perception). I think even between singer-alone vs. singer+tampura, creates a big difference to minds of most listeners. The singer+tampura seems like a "fuller" version. It is like singing a song with no background music vs. singing it with some. You then add violin and mridangam - and you complete the picture.

An excessively loud tampura gets to be a distraction to people varyingly - depending on whether one feels if it drowns the vocalist and/or instruments. It is a balance issue not that different frmo whether mridangam/violin is too loud or not. I think this can get very subjective, and this could be the prime source of argument here. The solution of course is not to get rid of the tampura, which will definitely take away a key ingredient. But there may not be a "perfect" solution which is acceptable to all as I think different listeners may have different preferences on how loud the tampura should be relative to rest of the sound sources - maybe?

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 25 Sep 2008, 22:06

They don't need a "reminder", especially after years of singing at the same pitch. So the real purpose of the tampura, when properly tuned, is that it adds a special, "classical", professional, fine dimension to pitch discrimination. This level of pitch discrimination is not needed for light music or western music (classical or pop)

Uday, I would like to understand what you mean by 'pitch discrimination' in this context. Questions like 'Is that from the audience point of view or the performer's point of view' come to me but may be such questions are due to my not having a clear idea on what is meant. After the Arun initiated experiments with sruthi bedam in another thread, I am a bit bewildered at the impotency of a change in drone to change the perception of aadhara shadja/ragam which actually is consistent with your statement that we do not need a drone to figure out the aadhara shadja and hence the ragam. Anyway, I digress...

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 25 Sep 2008, 23:16

vk,

I am ALWAYS talking from a performer's viewpoint unless otherwise stated.

Yes, generally there's no need for a drone to figure out the raga, unless some deliberate BMK-style obfuscation is going on.

Generally, in circumstances where shruti/graha bhedams and other confusions are not involved, the tampura as a pitch "reference" is strictly for novices. For the performers, the tampura is a "fine pitch" device with which he/she constantly strives to align perfectly. This is what I mean by a finer, "classical" pitch discrimination. Think of how MMI, KVN or Ravikiran fuss over their precise alignment with the tampura at every point. This fuss is not required/expected in say, light music or western music. Depending on one's own taste or discrimination, one may not expect it in Carnatic music either. But for example, this level of fuss is definitely required in most Hindustani music.

Think of the light music scenario. An S P Balasubramaniam or a Kishore Kumar plunges into a song at the exact required pitch (perhaps after an interlude of instrumental music by a cine orchestra). There's no tampura. And they sing seemingly "perfectly". So could they sing perfect "classical" music ? Probably not. Why ? Because a) they may not have mastered raga nuances, etc.. but also because b) they may not have developed the "fine pitch" dscrimination of the KVN variety. Now think how much easier must it be for an MMI or KVN to plunge into a song without any tampura. But that's not enough for classical music.

martin · Post by **martin** » 26 Sep 2008, 02:39

Uday_Shankar wrote:The electronic tampura cannot ruin the ear! I am willing to wager my life on that - prove this to me and I will drop dead in a grand public ceremony . On the other hand, electronic amplification, your favorite pastime, has the potential to ruin the ear.

I would say that it does, but not by developing deafness as a result form decibel-overexposure.

my, this thread has livened up of late!

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 26 Sep 2008, 06:56

Martin
That is an advanced psycho-acoustic debate and I am willing to have it separately, to the extent that I am qualified to have it. I would deem it as a learning experience from you rather than a "debate". And no promises to drop dead

.

Right now, we're still at the level of clarifying the "purpose" of the tampura on Carnatic stage. Some think it serves as a "reminder" of "where the Sa is"! That would be like saying that the mridangam is there as a "reminder" of where the tala is !

CC · Post by CC » 26 Sep 2008, 20:28

prashant wrote:
CC wrote:Indian musicians are given the indulgence to choose their basic sruthi.
It is not an indulgence. It is the fundamental basis of the Indian music system. Western musicians are given the 'indulgence' to build up a repertoire of static pieces, without having to respond to audience requests, indulge in breakneck manodharma in every concert, and ceaselessly burnish their repertoire [thanks to the howling hordes on the internet complaining that Sanjay sang a similar list in Mumbai to the one he did in Madison]. I do not believe the two systems can be compared in this way.

They could still do all this with C set to 256 Hz!

prashant wrote:
CC wrote:Perhaps 90% of the musicians won't make it to the concert stage if they are told that A is 440Hz and they had better train their voice to sing with that frequency setting the entire octave.
What would be the purpose of such a ridiculous exercise? We had musicians with thaggu shrutis like Sri MDR, powerful-voiced musicians like Sri GNB, musicians with 'unconventional' projection like Sri SSI. The range of shrutis brings diversity to our music. The impact of MDR singing mandra phrases in bhairavi at his shruti is as much part of the joy in CM as hearing MS Amma hit the deck effortless in kAmbhOji.

In opera, you have classification of singers by vocal range such as bass, baritone, tenor, falsetto and, in a gesture of supreme sacrifice, castrato (yes, that means what you think it means!:D).

prashant wrote:
CC wrote:In the last couple of years, I have been recording various artists using digital recorders. Every single recording has an unacceptably loud sound of the "electronic tambura".
Unacceptably loud to whom? I have done the same thing with very different results from yours. I would think this is a subjective issue which cannot be generalized.

To me. And, as I said in my original post, to the vocalists themselves!

prashant wrote:
CC wrote:Nobody, absolutely nobody, has come up to me and asked me for a copy of any concert; and that goes for all the top-ranking musicians today. That ought to disabuse you of that notion.
Perhaps you're attending the wrong concerts, CC?

I may attend the wrong concerts but I have the sense not to record them!

prashant wrote:
CC wrote:A vocalist needs two things to be a successful musician: a good voice and a good ear.
Can someone quantify what is a 'good voice'? Is KVN's voice a 'good voice'? Is MDR's voice a 'good voice'. Is Alathur Sivasubrahmanya Iyer's a 'good voice'? Is Govinda Rao's a 'good voice'? Is SSI's a 'good voice'? Is Sanjay's a 'good voice'? Is MSS's a good voice? This is what gets my goat sometimes. We are privy to what I believe is the most broad-minded musical system in the world. I could think of no other system that could accommodate all the above artistes in one framework. Must we narrow in this way the wide latitude that CM gives us?

By good voice, I meant merely one with the right range. I don't care to distinguish between voices that may be sweet-sounding or gravelly.

prashant wrote:
CC wrote:Get feedback through earphones. I would much rather accept a wire snaking up the ear of each artist on stage rather than see a bunch of electronic noisemakers on stage.
This is already being done, CC. You're behind the curve!

Maybe only by Unnikrishnan. I haven't seen anyone else do it in a Carnatic music concert.

prashant wrote:Thank you for a very thought-provoking post and I hope you will take my responses to your post in the cordial spirit in which they are meant.

Thought-provoking? I thought I was throwing a brick through a plate-glass window!