New Raga?

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 12 Jun 2006, 08:38

Folks

I need your help for the following experiment.
Please take some time to listen to the following 'new' raga

http://rapidshare.de/files/22835406/RagaX.mp3.html

I would like you to identify the raga if possible. Or at least give a guess to its possible likeness or similarity to a known raga.

After I hear from a few of you I shall discuss the whole process which may open some new approaches in CM!

Thanks for your cooperation!

srinidhi · Post by **srinidhi** » 12 Jun 2006, 09:08

Sounds like Bilahari to me.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 12 Jun 2006, 12:17

On second listen it sounded like shankarabharanam to me. Then I read srinidhi's comment. The subsequent listen did bring out Bilahari... May be I was influenced by srinidhi's reaction.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 14 Jun 2006, 03:51

cmlover,

i am more interested in how you made ari sing it (;-). I may be wrong but it looks like you did one or more of the following:
1. edited out portions that hover around "sa"
2. included only portions that hover around "some other swara"
3. edited-in portions from some other alapana (although unless from same concert - that is hard to do without difference in sruthi and/or audio quality doesnt shpw up).

I cant guess it because i do not get a good feeling for the sruthi (i.e. sa) - perhaps due to #1 and #2. I think original raga may have employed harikAmbhOji janya but dont know.

Very interesting results - although to me the inability to easily grasp the sruthi turned out to be psychologically tiring!

Arun

venkatpv · Post by **venkatpv** » 14 Jun 2006, 04:38

i get the feeling that it is a normal alapana going backwards!!

and it sounds awfully bilahari-ish to me

CML, time to tell us the trick!!

Lakshman · Post by **Lakshman** » 14 Jun 2006, 05:57

The rAgA is garuDadhvani played backwards.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 14 Jun 2006, 06:44

Indeed, Garudadhwani is Bilahari with a swapped Arohanam Avarohanam ( I looked it up )...... interesting... at least theoretically it can sound like Bilahari when played backwards.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 14 Jun 2006, 09:46

Thanks Folks
It is indeed gratifying. every one of you is right.
First it is ARI! Congrats Arun for that keen ear.
Yes it is ARI's Bilahari alapana played backwards. But I did a slight editing to 'mollify' the rasping sounds (ARI breathing in at his jet speed

Again Lakshman hit it on the nail (now confirmed by vk) that it becomes Garudadhvani! But note that Bilahari is bhashanga with kaisiki ni and hence hearing Harikambodhi is admissible too!

The reverse mapping carefully done can produce new rags indeed just painlessly. The gamakas are also new since the aro/avaro get reversed. Unless the performer is an expert it may be difficult to avoid the chaaya of the original raga. Especially if the avaro is just the reverse of aro we practically get the original raga.

It is very easy to perform this experiment. Doing it with Instrumental music should be ideal (since there are no breathing sounds to confound) but the attack rate of the notes are asymmetrical which produces a jarring effect. Again the mridangam sound if present is indeed very jarring sounding more like a Tabla (no offence intended!). To me many occasions when reversed CM sounds like HM and maybe there is some explanation.

Please experiment and post your results and enrich our 'raga bank'. I will christen this raga as 'Irahalib'

By the by there are many softwares available that will reverse the 'wave' file. I was using Steinbergs Get it on CD which permits me to soften the attack rate.

Now for a change listen to a 'weird' svaraprastaram in Irahalib
http://rapidshare.de/files/23008769/Ira ... m.mp3.html
I have filtered out the mridangam but it can still be heard!

Pl discuss any other ideas that will improve this approach....

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 14 Jun 2006, 09:53

Correction! Note this is 'garudadhvani'! Not played backwards.
Note
Bilahari
Aro = SRGPDS' ---> S' DPGRS = Avaro of Garudadhvani
Avaro = S'NDPMGRS ---> SRGMPDNS' = Aro of Garudadhvani

The time reversal makes the exact mapping of Bilahari onto Garudadhvani!
But of course the gamakas are different!

Vishnampettai Jayendran · Post by **Vishnampettai Jayendran** » 14 Jun 2006, 11:12

back masking carnatic music.. might wake up the devil hehehehe

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 14 Jun 2006, 12:32

On a slightly related topic, there is a tool I played with today which does 'Text to vocal music'. Meaning, you type in the lyrics and the notes, it will sing it for you with vocals..

The free version of the tool just gave me a few words to play with, so beware..the lyrics are very cheesy. A 'love stricken bagavathar' emoting..

http://rapidshare.de/files/23014526/Voc ... s.mp3.html

With the full version people have done a whole song with vocals..You can look at their demo samples at http://www.zero-g.co.uk/index.cfm?articleid=802

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 14 Jun 2006, 21:11

Vk
Interesting! Just d/led and checked it out. I checked with the market, it is not that popular! The idea is good but the demo version is too limiting to try any CM! Did you have any success?
Yamaha is always too cryptic

(one must learn japanese first

Vishnu

When did the Devil go to sleep first

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 14 Jun 2006, 22:08

>Did you have any success?

Did you get the file from rapidshare? May be 'success' is what you are keying in on

>I checked with the market, it is not that popular!

I do not know. I just bumped into this yesterday from the blog of a speech recognition person. It does not look like to be something too new but has gone through a few versions. Who else has competing products, do you know?

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 14 Jun 2006, 22:14

VK
Didn't realize that was you

(Is it Leon? Certainly not Miriam!)
What raga you were having in mind?

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 14 Jun 2006, 22:28

Now for a change listen to a 'weird' svaraprastaram in Irahalib
http://rapidshare.de/files/23008769/Ira ... m.mp3.html
I have filtered out the mridangam but it can still be heard!

Pl discuss any other ideas that will improve this approach....[/quote]

Interesting CML,
Can you post the original for comparison.
So are we going to call it 92 alem Irahalib? :cheesy:
Ill upload some of my violin piece for you to play with later.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 14 Jun 2006, 22:44

suji
Simply reverse the file in your software to recover the original. I guess it can be done in 'audacity' which is free!
If not I can post it..
You will see (I mean hear) how dramatic the difference is when you hear the original for comparison!
(I did expect 'Vocalist' to jumpin and identify the artiste

Would love to get 'good' instrumental renditions without the rasp!
Thanks for your interest.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 14 Jun 2006, 23:12

VK
Didn't realize that was you (Is it Leon? Certainly not Miriam!)
What raga you were having in mind?

The free demo version comes only with Miriam, but this free does not support any of the attack, vibrato and dynamics settings to make it sound less robotic. To take some of that out artificially, I slowed the speed down a bit which brought down the sruthi.

With respect to raga, oh come on, if you had to ask, I will have to question Miriam's vidwath

May be, Miriam's penchant for Briga hides the raga..

Before giving it away, I wonder if anyone else can detect the raga...CML, listen again ( not with FFT tools ) and see if a raga pops up...

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 14 Jun 2006, 23:24

OK VK! I paid attention!
kudos for the first crawling steps onto Irahalib

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 14 Jun 2006, 23:31

mOhanam?
or is it manahOm?
Ravi

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 14 Jun 2006, 23:48

CML,
got it!
Here's something I tested

http://rapidshare.de/files/23059257/test1.wav.html

VK, I too thought Mohanam

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 15 Jun 2006, 00:09

Suji
Thanks for that lovely
AlwogihtIr
I bet it is a new raga! You have done a nice job smoothing out the wrinkles!

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 15 Jun 2006, 00:22

Thanks CML,
Its amazing how the brain works. After listening to AlwogitIr few times, I got stuck with the tune and I 'm humming as if it was familiar.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 15 Jun 2006, 00:53

Yes indeed suji!
Thyagaraja is credited with the discovery of Kharaharapriya. He must have hummed it to himself and then put those divine words which we enjoy today.

It is said that the Father of MD came to the court and sang mohanam with the dhaivatam replaced by nishaadam and many laughed at that. But that was how Hamsadhvani was born!

The reversing technique is a tool that will give a feel for a new raga and after hearing for a while the strangenes will disappear and one will even be able to polish the gamakams and write a kriti. The CM grammar will be impeccable!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 15 Jun 2006, 00:55

Good job Suji..My first impressions.. AlwogihtIr and rIthigowlA are allied ragas

:cheesy: I can still hear rIthigowlA but I thought I also heard fleeting glimpses of vasantha.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 15 Jun 2006, 00:58

Vk
I thought I heard a little bit of sri ranjani too!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 15 Jun 2006, 01:01

OK VK! I paid attention!
kudos for the first crawling steps onto Irahalib

Well, Miriam intended to sing the reverse of Irahalib ( But glad you are all in the ball park )

OK, she decided to try a more familiar song..

http://rapidshare.de/files/23065146/Voc ... 1.mp3.html

Next in the works is a ragamalika... still on the love theme..she is stuck on that

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 15 Jun 2006, 01:33

[quote=""cmlover""]suji
(I did expect 'Vocalist' to jumpin and identify the artiste

quote]

Is it Ranjani Gayatri?

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 15 Jun 2006, 01:42

Vk
I meant bilahari only and was waggish!
Now we have rA ra vENu gO pA pA lA

Not bad indeed! Miriam is learning fast! I noticed that the full version is $199 a rather steep price but will be worthwhile if Miram can sing the pancaratna

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 15 Jun 2006, 01:44

No suji
It is Nityasree

(that is why I invoked Vocalist

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 15 Jun 2006, 02:08

I meant bilahari only and was waggish!
Now we have rA ra vENu gO pA pA lA

Understood. I was worried that all this Irahalib talk unconsciously influenced Miriam

..and Yes for the rA ra VENu..

Vk
I thought I heard a little bit of sri ranjani too!

After reading your post, I listened to again. yes, right away I also heard a bit of sri ranjani. It is almost like a rItigowla basket, when straight up, contained all the ragas in a cohesive whole and you invert the basket all the ragas fall out at their own individual rates!!

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 15 Jun 2006, 02:26

vk

nice analogy! The CM raga is like a package; the balls on the pool table! Once you fire the cue ball they fly towards the basket in all directions. There is an inherent beauty in that scatter if we look carefully! When I bought a 8mm projecter I always enjoyed playing the movies backwards. My kids used to be thrilled and would insist on it again and again. What a beauty when a broken glass collects itself and recovers pristine charm!

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 15 Jun 2006, 02:41

When the Cat is away the mice are at play!!

http://rapidshare.de/files/23072489/Guess.wav.html

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 15 Jun 2006, 02:59

arawsahtnak?

I suspected something in that neighborhood when I listened to it but cheated by reversing it with audacity..

BTW, pl. convert to mp3 to reduce file size..it will speed up your upload as well as our rapidshare download limits.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 15 Jun 2006, 03:15

excellent!
Even the cat cannot find out where the mouse is

Now you can claim the rights to the new raga for which you can write the kriti in ItEknas; the new language

There is just the shadow of kathanakuthuhalam but otherwise totally a new experience..

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 15 Jun 2006, 05:17

BTW, pl. convert to mp3 to reduce file size..it will speed up your upload as well as our rapidshare download limits.

As far as I can tell, .wav, .aac and .mp3 files all seem to have the same size.
Ravi

Vocalist · Post by **Vocalist** » 15 Jun 2006, 07:43

Eugh CML! You succeeded, how horrible!

Vocalist · Post by **Vocalist** » 15 Jun 2006, 07:44

I think RealAudio CAN reduce the size of a file (not sure how though - it always turned bigger when I used to use Helix...)

Otherwise, Windows Media Audio should do the trick. Wav files are far bigger than wma or mp3 though!!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 15 Jun 2006, 08:15

As far as I can tell, .wav, .aac and .mp3 files all seem to have the same size.
Ravi

They can be the same size if the mp3 is encoded at the same bitrate ( 128 kbits/sec ) as .wav. Of course, mp3 at 64 kb/s will reducethe file size in half.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 15 Jun 2006, 11:09

Final contribution from Miriam until she is taught more words

This time a ragamalika..

http://rapidshare.de/files/23094411/Voc ... 2.mp3.html

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 15 Jun 2006, 20:15

That is what I would call
'kuNDu chaTTiyilE kuthirai oTTal'
Miriam is too ambitious. But she got the mohanam right. The rest is iffy (I am lost)

But I think VK the idea is good! If it was around $50 I wouldn't mind. But Yamaha want to rip you off.

A crack-programmer like Arun should be able to implement the ideas easily! The phonemes can easily be varied in frequency (in fact that is the basis of shruti bhedam). I am persuading Arun to polish his Gamaka engine (which is coming good). Putting them together we got it! We can create ragas at will.

No! I don't touch the weed

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 15 Jun 2006, 20:30

CML:

LOL on the ''kuNDu chaTTiyilE...'..

I think you may be able to get atleast 1 and may be 2 of the ragas there. Miriam, though ambitious ( beyond her limits ), bases it on a well known piece..Anything beyond that will give it away too easily...( I am sure you would want to listen to that source piece to cleanse any bad memories from this

)

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 15 Jun 2006, 20:41

VK
I got the mohanam But the first vaguely suggests 'desh' but I think it cannot be! Now let us give others a chance..

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 15 Jun 2006, 21:42

vk,

navaragamalika varnam. Interestingly and perhaps understandably it become obvious as soon as the s'bharanam part came

Arun

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 15 Jun 2006, 22:15

Ha!
How could I have missed the kEdAraM staring in the face..
Give me three lashes with your tongue

kiransurya · Post by **kiransurya** » 15 Jun 2006, 22:19

Sounds like some strange janya of harikhambhoji..

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 16 Jun 2006, 11:42

Give me three lashes with your tongue

Yes, modeled ( mostly copied ) after the navaragamalika varnam.. Kedaram, Shankarabaranam, Mohanam and kAmbhOji.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 16 Jun 2006, 20:42

Thanks I needed that

Where is the kambodhi? The rest is there!
Good work Miriam! Given time you could become a 'passable' CM singer. But you have to get our vocabulary first! Apparently you know to lisp just a few words in English!

vk

I would call this experiment a success! Now I want to infect our enthusiam on to CM computer wizards to work on it! We can be on the Advisory Board

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 16 Jun 2006, 22:55

>Where is the kambodhi? The rest is there!

It is the last one, after mohanam. 'pa da sa ni..dha', liberally copied parts of the charanam of the navaragalamalika varnam..I agree it does not bring out much kambodhi there.

The demos they have using the full version is quite impressive in terms of vocalization. But it is still quite a long way from adapting it to CM. Of course, gamakam is a big issue. One thing I found is, to simulate something passable as a gamakam, if you have two long swaras Sa,,, Pa ( sa for four count and then Pa ), you code is as Sa,,,sa Pa ( Sa for three counts and then a sa ), and make a smooth transition from that last one count 'sa' to 'Pa', it sounds a little bit better. But as you have experimented in the past, we really need pitch bend... Not sure if the full version has it or not.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 16 Jun 2006, 23:27

vk

I agree it is the gamakam that is all important in CM. Pitchbend is one way of approaching it. We need a good demonstarion of the dasha vidha (16?) gamakas. Is there a demo anywhere? Arun's software does permit us to work on it graphically! In fact we can experiment with many more gamakas which may improve our approach and understanding of CM! I understood 'vali' clearly only after DRS demonstrated it! We need both aural and visual cues! I don't think Miriam is capable of all our gamakas

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 17 Jun 2006, 00:08

Here is what is possible with pitch bends and MIDI:

http://rapidshare.de/files/23245120/nilambari.mid.html

cmlover has already heard it, others - pl. let me know what you think.

This was created with my program (although admittedly with some painstaking effort). BTW, the program has been updated on the web with fixes for some bugs and features although i havent made them that official yet. Also, if you are willing to be a "beta tester", pl send me email.

Thanks
Arun