TM Krishna's article in The Hindu
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tamizhkizchan
- Posts: 4
- Joined: 18 Dec 2008, 10:14
http://www.hindu.com/mag/2008/12/14/sto ... 050100.htm
I feel in this article, TM Krishna has brought dirty laundry in the open and has done great disrespect to the art and the artists. It is equivalent to cricketers bringing dressing room arguments and discussions into public forums. It also seems like an irresponsible use of print space to lash out at professional artists. I think he would be better off focusing on his music as opposed to attempting to be a social reformer. It is indeed disappointing for a fans of his like me to see such articles. But that is just my feeling.
I feel in this article, TM Krishna has brought dirty laundry in the open and has done great disrespect to the art and the artists. It is equivalent to cricketers bringing dressing room arguments and discussions into public forums. It also seems like an irresponsible use of print space to lash out at professional artists. I think he would be better off focusing on his music as opposed to attempting to be a social reformer. It is indeed disappointing for a fans of his like me to see such articles. But that is just my feeling.
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ganesh_mourthy
- Posts: 1380
- Joined: 02 Sep 2007, 23:08
Well if artistes are not speaking this who is going to speak about this ?
TM krishna has not slandered someone's personal life.
Since these are things happening publicly and since the the art and music has become a public showcase where else could he lash it out!
I think we rasikas are becoming hypersensitive sometimes and want to protect all the flipsides of music on the pretext of giving a divine armour to music.
TM krishna has not slandered someone's personal life.
Since these are things happening publicly and since the the art and music has become a public showcase where else could he lash it out!
I think we rasikas are becoming hypersensitive sometimes and want to protect all the flipsides of music on the pretext of giving a divine armour to music.
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musicfan_4201
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bilahari
- Posts: 2631
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 09:02
There has long been an imbalance between main artistes and accompanists, and it is high time this is addressed. I'm glad TMK has raised this issue publicly. Consigning our "dirty laundry" to the stagnant interior of CM is only going to retard and prevent a reformation that in many socioeconomic respects is needed.
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rajumds
- Posts: 715
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 11:16
Truth is bitter. TMK deserves to be praised for bringing out a vexous issue out for discussion.
But, while we rasikas can only discuss, it is upto the artists to find a solution. It would be welocme if TMK can set the trend and being a star he can set an example which will force others to follow the suit.
But, while we rasikas can only discuss, it is upto the artists to find a solution. It would be welocme if TMK can set the trend and being a star he can set an example which will force others to follow the suit.
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poornashadjam
- Posts: 45
- Joined: 18 Oct 2008, 22:57
Hi,
TMK has been in the news this season for his music as well for his statements . What ever he has said here is true and most of us know that this has been happenning in CM . He has infact taken the pains to bring these issues up . He is a star performer and certainly his views will invoke good debate and may be a good solution - like "Artists onstage and offstage code of conduct " can come up.
All said and done, we need to accept one fact that that not all artists have this kind of sadist attitude ( to put pakkavaadyams commit a mistake and smile at them) . I have been listening and performing CM and there have been many concerts where the artists on stage have infact poottipootufied in a very lively friendly manner and the result is we get a winner which is Music - scintillating music. I have known many main artists who have learnt RTPs from their mridangists and violinists and even announced that on stage. There are many many artists who sincerely respect each other and their pakkavaadyakaaraas on and offstage.
In my opinion though what TMK says is true , we cannot generalise that to all CM performers.
TMK has been in the news this season for his music as well for his statements . What ever he has said here is true and most of us know that this has been happenning in CM . He has infact taken the pains to bring these issues up . He is a star performer and certainly his views will invoke good debate and may be a good solution - like "Artists onstage and offstage code of conduct " can come up.
All said and done, we need to accept one fact that that not all artists have this kind of sadist attitude ( to put pakkavaadyams commit a mistake and smile at them) . I have been listening and performing CM and there have been many concerts where the artists on stage have infact poottipootufied in a very lively friendly manner and the result is we get a winner which is Music - scintillating music. I have known many main artists who have learnt RTPs from their mridangists and violinists and even announced that on stage. There are many many artists who sincerely respect each other and their pakkavaadyakaaraas on and offstage.
In my opinion though what TMK says is true , we cannot generalise that to all CM performers.
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ganesh_mourthy
- Posts: 1380
- Joined: 02 Sep 2007, 23:08
In fact it was a raging issue once when TMK declared the chauvinistic attitude of male accompanist who would not accompany ladies and Male performers who would not have a female violin accompaniment which even now prevails. There were some great vidwans ( so called ) who deserted even MLV for just the reason the she is a woman. I appreciate TMK's dauntless statements.
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musicfan_4201
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Muthu
- Posts: 10
- Joined: 12 Nov 2008, 16:23
Regarding TMK's feelings in his article, I would like to express my view point in the best interest of the art as follows. Its my own opinion.
1. On stage discipline
It is very imperative that discipline on stage by all needs to be kept up not only to make the concert successful and enjoyable but also to preserve our holy art and culture. As far as discipline on stage is concerned, there should not be any discrimination or disparity in treatment. Both main and support artists need to agree in principle and spirit
2.Impact of off stage action on onstage
Also, equally important aspect is that any action performed or done by one to him/herself or to others outside the stage should not be brought on to the stage and such things should be precluded by all in the interest of the art and preserving our good tradition. Some ( olden and modern) have some bad habbits done before stage performance but on the stage they give 100% attention and contribution to entertain audience and make the concert enjoyable too. Many examples are known. It happens because their personal life would have been a suffering through either due to background or due to bad treatment meted to them and they struggle to meet both ends, though they are a source of enjoyment for others through concert performance
3.Compensation
The issue of compensation is not unique to performing artists. It is all pervasive in all professions. Regulation is difficult to establish as is seen in many professions. Disparity and exploitation would continue to prevail. So, What is ideal to do is that those artists who have good mind of ensuring reasonableness in compensation to all need to introduce good practices by themselves and such good practice will spread through word of mouth. Unionism among artists for enforcing equality in rights might create unplesant situation and cripple combination creativity in art. It is like parents taking care of their own children. Main artists should assume the role of parents and set good practices
4. Artist's integrity
Integrity level of artists will start prevailing when there is clear understanding between main and support artists. Transparency in deals will enable confidence among artists. All suspicion in dealings should be avoided. Unless openness ,transparency and appropriate reward recognition are put in place by good practices, artist's integrity will always be in question
5.Display of technical prowess
Nothing wrong in displayinfg one's technical superiority or prowess on stage during performance. But, the intention should be to entertain audience with in the concert parameters set by main. Hence, a proper discussion, pre-plan and understanding among main ans support artists must be reached before the concert defining the dos and do nots. In no way, one artist should intend to put the other down on the stage as it will lead to unhealthy presentation. It is known fact that the skills of each one are different from others as the inumerable types of species in ocean. CM is a ocean and creativity is infinite. Each one has some USP in his hand and no two artists are comparable. Metrics to establish are difficult as maturity level varies. What is needed is winning the co-artists confidence heart that make concert successful. If the vindictive mind of artist's continues, concert partnership and cohesion will take a beating
6. Future thinking
All aspects dealt in team play and mind games are well known fact to all from the inception of performing arts. But, some good concious artists always kept up the discipline in tact through out their career. Many also suffered in the process. Now with the technology advancing day by day, and its use in CM heads on, the theory of survival of the fittest in CM needs to be redefined considering the positive co-operation and understanding among all.
I hope a healthy trend will be set in CM in the years to come.
1. On stage discipline
It is very imperative that discipline on stage by all needs to be kept up not only to make the concert successful and enjoyable but also to preserve our holy art and culture. As far as discipline on stage is concerned, there should not be any discrimination or disparity in treatment. Both main and support artists need to agree in principle and spirit
2.Impact of off stage action on onstage
Also, equally important aspect is that any action performed or done by one to him/herself or to others outside the stage should not be brought on to the stage and such things should be precluded by all in the interest of the art and preserving our good tradition. Some ( olden and modern) have some bad habbits done before stage performance but on the stage they give 100% attention and contribution to entertain audience and make the concert enjoyable too. Many examples are known. It happens because their personal life would have been a suffering through either due to background or due to bad treatment meted to them and they struggle to meet both ends, though they are a source of enjoyment for others through concert performance
3.Compensation
The issue of compensation is not unique to performing artists. It is all pervasive in all professions. Regulation is difficult to establish as is seen in many professions. Disparity and exploitation would continue to prevail. So, What is ideal to do is that those artists who have good mind of ensuring reasonableness in compensation to all need to introduce good practices by themselves and such good practice will spread through word of mouth. Unionism among artists for enforcing equality in rights might create unplesant situation and cripple combination creativity in art. It is like parents taking care of their own children. Main artists should assume the role of parents and set good practices
4. Artist's integrity
Integrity level of artists will start prevailing when there is clear understanding between main and support artists. Transparency in deals will enable confidence among artists. All suspicion in dealings should be avoided. Unless openness ,transparency and appropriate reward recognition are put in place by good practices, artist's integrity will always be in question
5.Display of technical prowess
Nothing wrong in displayinfg one's technical superiority or prowess on stage during performance. But, the intention should be to entertain audience with in the concert parameters set by main. Hence, a proper discussion, pre-plan and understanding among main ans support artists must be reached before the concert defining the dos and do nots. In no way, one artist should intend to put the other down on the stage as it will lead to unhealthy presentation. It is known fact that the skills of each one are different from others as the inumerable types of species in ocean. CM is a ocean and creativity is infinite. Each one has some USP in his hand and no two artists are comparable. Metrics to establish are difficult as maturity level varies. What is needed is winning the co-artists confidence heart that make concert successful. If the vindictive mind of artist's continues, concert partnership and cohesion will take a beating
6. Future thinking
All aspects dealt in team play and mind games are well known fact to all from the inception of performing arts. But, some good concious artists always kept up the discipline in tact through out their career. Many also suffered in the process. Now with the technology advancing day by day, and its use in CM heads on, the theory of survival of the fittest in CM needs to be redefined considering the positive co-operation and understanding among all.
I hope a healthy trend will be set in CM in the years to come.
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Nick H
- Posts: 9473
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03
Oh for goodness' sake...tamizhkizchan wrote:
I feel in this article, TM Krishna has brought dirty laundry in the open and has done great disrespect to the art and the artists. It is equivalent to cricketers bringing dressing room arguments and discussions into public forums. It also seems like an irresponsible use of print space to lash out at professional artists. I think he would be better off focusing on his music as opposed to attempting to be a social reformer. It is indeed disappointing for a fans of his like me to see such articles. But that is just my feeling.
What an absolutely preposterous point of view.
He is not the first, and I hope he will not be the last to talk of music and the world of musicians, from a musician's point of view.
Nor will you find the pages of rasikas.org to be empty of such talk.
I entirely agree. Our music should be respected, some of our musicians are remarkable individuals too, but they are not saints, and their faults and the faults of the sabbhas and of the system are part of the story tooganesh_mourthy wrote:I think we rasikas are becoming hypersensitive sometimes and want to protect all the flipsides of music on the pretext of giving a divine armour to music.
I thought it was an excellent article. In passing, I was astonished at the size of some of the sums he mentioned as being paid to 'main artists' --- do they really get tens of thousands? Not, of course, that I am saying that they shouldn't...
My only slight disagreement is with his assertion that the accompaniests should band together to change the situation. We can all tell that this would, at least at first, result simply in the disappearance of names from the stage, and the loss of their livelihood. As in many employer/employee situations, the power here is with the employer, and there is no shortage of potential employees.
The people who can change things are just those main artists that the sabbhas know fill their halls to overflowing, and consequently their coffers. We can quote history: I have heard it said that an artist insisted that PSP be paid more than his main-artist fee. The precedent is there.
Of the other two power-holding groups, the audience and the sponsors, the big-number audiences probably do not give a second thought to such things, and the sponsors, all but a few, are probably more interested in their posters than what happens in the hall.
Well, probably other posters, especially Muthu, have said better than I, but I still felt I had to jump in on this!
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gopalk
- Posts: 41
- Joined: 15 Nov 2007, 12:56
Exactly.nick H wrote: The people who can change things are just those main artists that the sabbhas know fill their halls to overflowing, and consequently their coffers. We can quote history: I have heard it said that an artist insisted that PSP be paid more than his main-artist fee. The precedent is there.
The point where I did not agree with TMK in the article is when he says that the "sabhas" pay the accompanying artists less than the main artist. Why does not the "main artist" take it upon himself to ensure that all his team (which is how he should look at it) get equal money - by distributing the amount paid by the sabha. Sort of like the MoM awards in the Indian Cricket Team.
If he had said in his article - this is how I do it - it would have been a great example for others to emulate.
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ShrutiLaya
- Posts: 225
- Joined: 14 Sep 2008, 01:15
While I agree that it is unfair to the accompanists, the unfortunate truth is that the audience is paying mainly to see the lead artist, the celebrity. Look in other fields - do we think that, say, Rajnikanth is paid the same as the character actor who plays his father in a movie, or even his heroine? Or does SPB get paid the same as the violinist in the orchestra, or even the lyricist or the music director?gopalk wrote:Why does not the "main artist" take it upon himself to ensure that all his team (which is how he should look at it) get equal money - by distributing the amount paid by the sabha.
The article leads with the quote "We, the main performers, must realise that we are all in it together to produce quality music". If that were really true, I respectfully submit that the problem would fix itself. One main performer would treat his accompanists equally, thus producing better quality music and becoming the most popular performer; others will emulate this example, not out of altruism but because it will increase their own popularity.
The only way out that I see for talented accompanists is to become celebrities and main artists in their own right (like Lalgudi).
My 1 cent ..
- Sreenadh
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ShrutiLaya
- Posts: 225
- Joined: 14 Sep 2008, 01:15
That *is* a great trick if you can pull it off. The best we've been able to do is, 75% goes to the artists (rest goes for the hall rental).coolkarni wrote: The winning trick is to spend 90 % o the budget on artists and nothing else !!
Not sure I understand, are you saying the violinist will be requested to play one (or more) solo item(s) in each concert? How does the main artist react to this?coolkarni wrote:
... proposed to arrange the next set of concerts to be based on a pattern of asking all our accompanying violinists (till date) to give solos.
With a slightly higher degree of freedom
to explain and play the Thani , for the Laya artists.
- Sreenadh
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vasanthakokilam
- Posts: 10958
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01
I think the point is, given that the lead artist is the celebrity, they should take it upon themselves to ensure that the accompanying artists are paid reasonably well.While I agree that it is unfair to the accompanists, the unfortunate truth is that the audience is paying mainly to see the lead artist, the celebrity
TMK talking about it is a good first step, and he should organize among the top 20 main artists to ensure all of them send a strong message to the organizers on this issue.
Asking the accompanying artists to solve the problems themselves is a big cop-out.
Sorry, analogy does not hold.Rajnikanth is paid the same as the character actor who plays his father in a movie, or even his heroine? Or does SPB get paid the same as the violinist in the orchestra, or even the lyricist or the music director?
There should not be any doubt on that issue, we see ample evidence for this in concert after concert, but the pay disparity does not seem to narrow. In CM, as opposed to many other musical generes or other art forms, it is truly a collaborative effort. The main artist of course is the leader but the accompanists are not that insignificant to warrant to 100:1. 50:1, 10:1 etc. pay disparity."We, the main performers, must realise that we are all in it together to produce quality music". If that were really true
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money
- Posts: 36
- Joined: 16 Mar 2008, 12:11
TMK should be commended for bringing the plight of accompanying artistes and the unfair and heartless treatment meted out to them by the main artistes.The grapevine has it that the real culprits are some of the famous and frontline musicians of the day who shortchange the accompanying artistes by paying them a a paltry sum, while they charge hefty fees.from the organisors.
If TMKs article does manage to stir the conscience of such main artistes, he would have done a great service to the cause of fairplay to the violinists and midangists and upapakkavadyam artistes.
It is heartening that a top vocalist himself has come out against the exploitation that is going on.
If TMKs article does manage to stir the conscience of such main artistes, he would have done a great service to the cause of fairplay to the violinists and midangists and upapakkavadyam artistes.
It is heartening that a top vocalist himself has come out against the exploitation that is going on.
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Nick H
- Posts: 9473
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03
Whilst they do indeed, they also have their own reputations and livelihoods to consider first and foremost --- there fore I would understand if they do not wish to talk about this.
I'm sure there are many accompanists who culd tell how a word out of line somewhere led to certain invitations ceasing. Part of the problem, maybe, but people have to feed their families first and foremost.
I'm sure there are many accompanists who culd tell how a word out of line somewhere led to certain invitations ceasing. Part of the problem, maybe, but people have to feed their families first and foremost.
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srichitra
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sampath77
- Posts: 15
- Joined: 19 Dec 2008, 15:38
I am an old man who has heard a lot of music. I am also upset.
With every passing day it appears to me that TMK is losing his marbles. I wanted to post about this but waited for my anger to subside before I did so. TMK is not washing dirty linen in public. This emperor has no clothes. So any talk of him, clothes and washing is simply redundant.
Through this article TMK has attacked his peers while claiming to be a saint himself. How many times has he used the word "I" in this article? How many times does he say what HE is doing about the ills that plague his profession? If he really wants to do something about the ills in his profession, he should do more and write less. He should pay his accompanists more. He should tell his accompanists every song he is going to sing in a concert. He should rehearse his complicated pallavis with his accompanists. He should also treat his accompanists well. If he does all of the above let him say in the article that HE does all of these things and wants other artistes to also do the same. THEN his high pedestal preachings will have some merit. In the absence of this, his article is a rush by him to claim the moral higher ground. And that is gimmickry.
Few years back he would make a speech about people not getting up in taniavartanam. I don't know if he still does that because I do not attend his concerts. I was one of those that was shouted at by this brash man. I am an old man who has to visit the toilet every 1 hour.
You create change by doing, not writing/talking.
Reading between the lines, I feel that this is a personal attack by TMK on main artistes like Seshagopalan (who sings "extensive mathematical calculations"), Sanjay Subramanyam (who sings "rare ragas" almost always) and Sowmya (who also sings "rare ragas") and also on accompanists like Purushottam. I remember that Purushottam used to accept 2-3 concerts a day. If TMK does not want Purushottam to accept 2-3 concerts, why does he not pay the young and poor kanjira player more? Why take a swipe at the young man through the newspapers?
This is nothing short of blasphemy and the young man has to have his knuckles re-adjusted by the musical establishment.
-- [A 77 year old and still angry] Sampath
With every passing day it appears to me that TMK is losing his marbles. I wanted to post about this but waited for my anger to subside before I did so. TMK is not washing dirty linen in public. This emperor has no clothes. So any talk of him, clothes and washing is simply redundant.
Through this article TMK has attacked his peers while claiming to be a saint himself. How many times has he used the word "I" in this article? How many times does he say what HE is doing about the ills that plague his profession? If he really wants to do something about the ills in his profession, he should do more and write less. He should pay his accompanists more. He should tell his accompanists every song he is going to sing in a concert. He should rehearse his complicated pallavis with his accompanists. He should also treat his accompanists well. If he does all of the above let him say in the article that HE does all of these things and wants other artistes to also do the same. THEN his high pedestal preachings will have some merit. In the absence of this, his article is a rush by him to claim the moral higher ground. And that is gimmickry.
Few years back he would make a speech about people not getting up in taniavartanam. I don't know if he still does that because I do not attend his concerts. I was one of those that was shouted at by this brash man. I am an old man who has to visit the toilet every 1 hour.
You create change by doing, not writing/talking.
Reading between the lines, I feel that this is a personal attack by TMK on main artistes like Seshagopalan (who sings "extensive mathematical calculations"), Sanjay Subramanyam (who sings "rare ragas" almost always) and Sowmya (who also sings "rare ragas") and also on accompanists like Purushottam. I remember that Purushottam used to accept 2-3 concerts a day. If TMK does not want Purushottam to accept 2-3 concerts, why does he not pay the young and poor kanjira player more? Why take a swipe at the young man through the newspapers?
This is nothing short of blasphemy and the young man has to have his knuckles re-adjusted by the musical establishment.
-- [A 77 year old and still angry] Sampath
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ShrutiLaya
- Posts: 225
- Joined: 14 Sep 2008, 01:15
Thanks for the clarification, Coolkarni. It is a great concept, although it needs an "understanding audience" which may be hard to gather outside Chennai. But there is no question it must be highly satisfying for the performers. All the best ..coolkarni wrote:Shruthilaya
What I meant was a solo Concert by an artist whom we have seen , all our lives , only as an accompanist.
Or atleast in this case , solo concerts by accompanists who have been accompanying in the series of concerts for us
- Sreenadh (Shruti Laya is the organization!)
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melakartha
- Posts: 45
- Joined: 06 Jun 2008, 20:52
By giving so much importance to each and every word and sentence of publicity -hungry artists like this, at the end of day, we have all successfully ensured what people like TMK want----constant and unhindered publicity and limelight and that too free of cost
. If we stop giving undue importance to peole like this , they will also stop talking loosely...that is my humble opinion..
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tamizhkizchan
- Posts: 4
- Joined: 18 Dec 2008, 10:14
In the western world this article may be considered as slander and cause for lawsuits. I suggest that all the forum regulars stop pretending to be saintly figures aiming to solve all world's problems. This is a serious issue and any encouragement from this forum will only damage the art form and the artists' relationships.
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sampath77
- Posts: 15
- Joined: 19 Dec 2008, 15:38
It is because the article is not libellous that I feel TMK has been cowardly in his article. He has done great disservice to the music community. He has not named names. He should have. By saying some "old wives tales" he has displayed poor taste and shown scant regard for all of his peers in the field. He deserves a public censure from organisations from YACM, Experts Committee of the Music Academy, etc. Alas! They, like me, do not have teeth too.
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rajagopal
- Posts: 29
- Joined: 03 May 2006, 12:03
It is interesting that TMK's article has brought so much attention. Technically if an insider comes out with a general article talking about the all the ills in a profession without citing names or instances, it is extremely slanderous. We rasikas are a body of people who only want to listen to music. We don't care about what everyone gets paid. It is for the musicians to settle it within themselves. If TMK wants to right wrongs then he should do it himself. For instance he says that there are artistes who pay 500 rupees to an accompanist when they themselves get 50,000. If TMK had come out and said what HE himself would pay to the accompanist when he gets 50,000 then we can understand if someone is exploited or not. Or if he were bold enough to suggest how much an accompanist should be paid when he himself gets 50,000 then it is ok. But then Carnatic Music does not come under the Minimum Wages Act!
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kadambam
- Posts: 104
- Joined: 12 Jan 2007, 04:10
Krishna's intention may be genuine but his execution could have been better. If Krishna really wanted a solution to this problem of accompanists being under compensated, then he should take up this issue with the organizers. Also, if he starts paying his instrumentalists well, then it will raise the bar for other musicians to follow. Compensation issues cannot be resolved in public; it has to happen between the concerned authorities. Or if Krishna is suggesting that the rasikas determine the % share of accompanists in a concert, then that is a different issue. (for e.g. as a rasika i can vote 40% goes to vocalist, 35% goes to violinist and remaining 25% goes to mrudangist, depending on the composition)
A Sarva laghu specialist once recollected this incident. Apparently after a concert, the organizers were not able to come up with the promised compensation for the artists. The vocalist distributed the money (whatever he got) between the accompanists, but did not partake even a penny.
A Sarva laghu specialist once recollected this incident. Apparently after a concert, the organizers were not able to come up with the promised compensation for the artists. The vocalist distributed the money (whatever he got) between the accompanists, but did not partake even a penny.
Last edited by kadambam on 24 Dec 2008, 13:14, edited 1 time in total.
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Nick H
- Posts: 9473
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03
Rubbish.tamizhkizchan wrote:In the western world this article may be considered as slander and cause for lawsuits.
To have done so would have caused a feud between him and the individuals named. Camps would have been formed, and very possibly the weight of seniority and establishment would have done him a great deal of harm. That would have been senseless.It is because the article is not libellous that I feel TMK has been cowardly in his article. He has done great disservice to the music community. He has not named names.
Not at all. If I remember my [British] law right, you cannot defame a class of people, only individuals. I think it is perfectly useful to draw attention to the ills in a subsection of society without naming names.It is interesting that TMK's article has brought so much attention. Technically if an insider comes out with a general article talking about the all the ills in a profession without citing names or instances, it is extremely slanderous.
I can respect those who have posted the question as to whether he, personally, is doing the same thing. That is certainly pertinent.
So you do not care if a child cleans your hotel table because you only want to eat good food?We rasikas are a body of people who only want to listen to music. We don't care about what everyone gets paid.
People are interested in all sorts of stories and details about carnatic musicians and their world; if you only want to read or hear the ones about how devout or devoted they are (for instance), that is up to you.
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sampath77
- Posts: 15
- Joined: 19 Dec 2008, 15:38
nick H
TMK's article was to me like Nike telling the other shoe manufacturers not to employ Asian children to manufacture shoes. Talk is cheap. Let him tell us what he does for us to take his article seriously. If not, he is just indulging in a cheap publicity stunt by slinging mud and claiming higher moral ground. I agree that libel is impossible and that makes his tale of woes cowardly. And old wives tales without examples is meaningless. Let him confirm that the percussionist that arrives late for concerts is Purushottam. Or is it Karaikudi Mani? Let him confirm that the singer who gives a victorious smile to an accompanist after singing a rare raga or a complicated kanakku is T. N. Seshagopalan or is it Sanjay Subramanian or is it Sowmya? As a fan of Sowmya, Seshagopalan, Karaikudi Mani and Sanjay Subramanian and as a family friend of Purushottam, I am quite upset by the article and so is my entire group. We are doing what we can by boycotting TMK from now on till we see an apology.
TMK's article was to me like Nike telling the other shoe manufacturers not to employ Asian children to manufacture shoes. Talk is cheap. Let him tell us what he does for us to take his article seriously. If not, he is just indulging in a cheap publicity stunt by slinging mud and claiming higher moral ground. I agree that libel is impossible and that makes his tale of woes cowardly. And old wives tales without examples is meaningless. Let him confirm that the percussionist that arrives late for concerts is Purushottam. Or is it Karaikudi Mani? Let him confirm that the singer who gives a victorious smile to an accompanist after singing a rare raga or a complicated kanakku is T. N. Seshagopalan or is it Sanjay Subramanian or is it Sowmya? As a fan of Sowmya, Seshagopalan, Karaikudi Mani and Sanjay Subramanian and as a family friend of Purushottam, I am quite upset by the article and so is my entire group. We are doing what we can by boycotting TMK from now on till we see an apology.
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sakthi.balan
- Posts: 28
- Joined: 15 Dec 2008, 10:34
About TMK's article......I do not feel anything wrong in what he said. But the tone of the message could have been flattened a bit. I felt it is slightly above the limit. It was as if he wrote it when he was in utterly bad mood.
But it is good to see TMK coming bold publicly with the ills of years-old practice.
But it is good to see TMK coming bold publicly with the ills of years-old practice.
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Nick H
- Posts: 9473
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03
sampath77, I accept your very good points, but I would say not to take the article so personally.
Perhaps you know an accompanist who is often late; chances are very high that he is not the only one, so what is the point in identifying with your friend? Is it right to be often late? No.
Are unexpected ragas and unknown compositions part of the territory for violinists? Of course they are, and I am sure they are taken in good part by most; it is their job. Do they care for being put down, on stage, for not knowing? I don't suppose they do --- and I don't care for the idea of a main artist doing such a thing.
I do not think that we should expect perfection any more than we should reject criticism. I do feel though, that those artists who are just not nice people should keep their unpleasant behaviour off the stage. If they don't then they cannot object to the limelight.
sakthi.balan; too many days have passed now, but I suspect that the way you perceived the article, and you may be exactly right, might have been the result of limited space, and perhaps even the editor's red pen.
Perhaps you know an accompanist who is often late; chances are very high that he is not the only one, so what is the point in identifying with your friend? Is it right to be often late? No.
Are unexpected ragas and unknown compositions part of the territory for violinists? Of course they are, and I am sure they are taken in good part by most; it is their job. Do they care for being put down, on stage, for not knowing? I don't suppose they do --- and I don't care for the idea of a main artist doing such a thing.
I do not think that we should expect perfection any more than we should reject criticism. I do feel though, that those artists who are just not nice people should keep their unpleasant behaviour off the stage. If they don't then they cannot object to the limelight.
sakthi.balan; too many days have passed now, but I suspect that the way you perceived the article, and you may be exactly right, might have been the result of limited space, and perhaps even the editor's red pen.
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vasanthakokilam
- Posts: 10958
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01
sampath77, your line about Nike is a good one. We were focussing on only the pay issue but you are right, he has brought in all sorts of other issues which he need not have included. His article is along the lines of 'on one hand...... and on the other hand...but considering both the accompaniments are not treated well'. It is like he is debating within himself or anticipating what others will say in return to his first point and he wanted to leave no room for such rebuttals.
Anyway, as Nick said, it will only drive you nuts if you take is personally. I understand you are close to the scene.
But hopefully, the pay issue gets the required attention and shakes things up a bit.
Anyway, as Nick said, it will only drive you nuts if you take is personally. I understand you are close to the scene.
But hopefully, the pay issue gets the required attention and shakes things up a bit.
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vijay
- Posts: 2522
- Joined: 27 Feb 2006, 16:06
Comparing Tamizhkichan's and Sampath's post is intersting. One says there is a case for slander. The other says that the artice is cowardly because it is not!
I can't see what the fuss is all about here - all we have a musician who is talking about some well-known ills in the CM scene which any right thinking person should condemn. Why should this cause hurt to anybody - unless, of course, he or she is guilty of one or more of the evils mentioned in the article!
Also, from I remember reading somewhere that artistes from the younger generation including TMK Sanjay etc. are known to give accompanists a much better deal than in past days. So it is not exactly a case of preaching without practising - the Nike analogy can therefore be dumped in the sweatshops of Vietnam. But if he had mentioned this, he would have got more brickbats for boasting!
Of course, this does not mean all veterans are guilty of treating accompanists unfairly! Even having to issue this clarification is an indication of the ridiculous kind of finger pointing going on in this forum!
Finally, Sampath, if you are really are a fan/friend of the artistes you mention, you are not doing them any favours by dragging their names into this discussion. All of the vocalists you mention very likely share the views of TMK on this even if they don't publish articles as often as him. As for the accompanists, I have never seen BSP or KRM arrive late. This is just for the record, in case anyone gets the wrong impression after looking at Sampath's post.
I can't see what the fuss is all about here - all we have a musician who is talking about some well-known ills in the CM scene which any right thinking person should condemn. Why should this cause hurt to anybody - unless, of course, he or she is guilty of one or more of the evils mentioned in the article!
Also, from I remember reading somewhere that artistes from the younger generation including TMK Sanjay etc. are known to give accompanists a much better deal than in past days. So it is not exactly a case of preaching without practising - the Nike analogy can therefore be dumped in the sweatshops of Vietnam. But if he had mentioned this, he would have got more brickbats for boasting!
Of course, this does not mean all veterans are guilty of treating accompanists unfairly! Even having to issue this clarification is an indication of the ridiculous kind of finger pointing going on in this forum!
Finally, Sampath, if you are really are a fan/friend of the artistes you mention, you are not doing them any favours by dragging their names into this discussion. All of the vocalists you mention very likely share the views of TMK on this even if they don't publish articles as often as him. As for the accompanists, I have never seen BSP or KRM arrive late. This is just for the record, in case anyone gets the wrong impression after looking at Sampath's post.
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lifeisasong
- Posts: 53
- Joined: 19 Apr 2008, 23:36
Not really. I happen to have some familiarity with British law.tamizhkizchan wrote:In the western world this article may be considered as slander and cause for lawsuits. I suggest that all the forum regulars stop pretending to be saintly figures aiming to solve all world's problems. This is a serious issue and any encouragement from this forum will only damage the art form and the artists' relationships.
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sampath77
- Posts: 15
- Joined: 19 Dec 2008, 15:38
Let TMK slander anyone he wants. That is his problem. But let him mention names. Even though he has used words like us and we in every statement of ills, everyone in my group got the strong feeling that he was saying "other people have all this ills in them but I do not". That is bad. So the Nike analogy is definitely valid.
Mr Vijay, you say that if he has mentioned that he pays accompanists well, he would have got more brickbats for boasting! I am not asking him to boast. I am asking him to place on record what he pays or what rules he employs for deciding what to pay. Do we trust him that he pays well? No one in my group thinks he pays well. So in light of this, his article was cheap, dont you agree?
Mr Vijay, you say that if he has mentioned that he pays accompanists well, he would have got more brickbats for boasting! I am not asking him to boast. I am asking him to place on record what he pays or what rules he employs for deciding what to pay. Do we trust him that he pays well? No one in my group thinks he pays well. So in light of this, his article was cheap, dont you agree?
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vasanthakokilam
- Posts: 10958
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01
Sampath: Your group of people may believe in certain things but let us not try to read TMK's mind here. We have his words in this article and other public statements he had made in interviews. Going beyond that will mean people have an axe to grind wth TMK. And we do not want that in this forum.
Now, speaking generally: ( outside the context of this TMK article )
I am already troubled by formations of these factions of followers based on artists. ( I realize it is not a new development ). In such cases it is the rasikas who lose out in not enjoying CM from such "rival" artists. Let us not extend that to active campaigning against certain artists.
Now, speaking generally: ( outside the context of this TMK article )
I am already troubled by formations of these factions of followers based on artists. ( I realize it is not a new development ). In such cases it is the rasikas who lose out in not enjoying CM from such "rival" artists. Let us not extend that to active campaigning against certain artists.
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rajagopal
- Posts: 29
- Joined: 03 May 2006, 12:03
As you have 'realized' it is not a new development. I have heard of horror stories between the Viswanatha Iyer and Ariyakudi fans. The streets of Kallidaikurichi has seen a lot of GNB/Semmangudi arguments and fights including campaigning for and against. Rasikas love their favorites so much that comparisons are natural. Have we not seen posts about a Vijay Siva concert that asks "Why doesn't he get the crowds the more popular artistes get?" with specific mention of names? Everytime a song is rendered or reviewed is it not not immediately compared to a recording of a great master who has sung it? Are not modern aesthetic developments frowned with sarcastic comments like "R.I.P" If factions do get formed it is only a natural process.vasanthakokilam wrote:I am already troubled by formations of these factions of followers based on artists. ( I realize it is not a new development ). In such cases it is the rasikas who lose out in not enjoying CM from such "rival" artists. Let us not extend that to active campaigning against certain artists.
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rajaglan
- Posts: 709
- Joined: 29 Dec 2006, 21:34
Today I happened to watch Bj in Coffee with Anu program. She touched the same topic but lightly. Actually the topic was started by Anu indirectly about an audience . BJ replied by referring to that audience who was thrilled to hear a yeman rendition on Lord Krishna by her. I couldnot get the full conversation. And I want to be very careful here. And she said " for Her, raga comes first and then devabhakti ". Offcourse Krishna came later. I mean TMK.
Last edited by rajaglan on 28 Dec 2008, 07:49, edited 1 time in total.
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srikant1987
- Posts: 2246
- Joined: 10 Jun 2007, 12:23
He uses "we" everywhere when referring to main artists.sampath wrote:Through this article TMK has attacked his peers while claiming to be a saint himself. How many times has he used the word "I" in this article? How many times does he say what HE is doing about the ills that plague his profession?
I think the problem is that we expect the accompanists to "follow" every time. And in AlApanais, "following" is taken to mean absolute repitition, which can get totally boring. In another TMKrishna controversy thread, Coolkarni gave this MMI neraval, where the violinist so actively participated.
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mdrvoletifan
- Posts: 1
- Joined: 29 Dec 2008, 22:19
TMK is a fabulously talented musician. He is unfortunately being sucked into a vortex of his own creation, wishing to become bigger than the music. He must realise that he could become an even greater musician than he is today, if only he would truly (not the arrogantly humble public posture) surrender to the music.
Ask his accompanists how he splits his pie, and the hypocrisy and self-glorifying intent of the article will be evident.
Ask his accompanists how he splits his pie, and the hypocrisy and self-glorifying intent of the article will be evident.