"There was a discussion on rasikas.org over a month ago about a comment I made on Bhakthi. The whole discussion was based on a report of my speech published in the newspaper. I was told about this heated debate and did read it."...
Link: http://www.tmkrishna.com/krishnauvacha. ... /&prd=mag&
Bhakthi and CM - TMK replies
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vasanthakokilam
- Posts: 10958
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01
Thanks preposterous.
Interesting. I am a bit disappointed that Krishna takes a totally dim view of the conversations that take place here. In fact, he is not even strongly acknowledging the different points of views that are expressed here. His article is a distortion of what actually happens here. Interestingly that distortion is what he himself complains about. There is no single point of view. On his bhakthi related article, there were numerous point of view with several people actually supporting his position.
The anti-dote for free speech is more free speech. He is very much welcome here to participate in the discussions with us. I can also understand he does not want to get in the fray but complaining that we did not check with him by email is mildly preposterous
If he does not feel welcome here to participate, I think it is fair we should take some responsibility in not having created that welcoming atmosphere. We can always improve on that count.
I have to acknowledge one point he makes. We do not consciously think that musicians like him live and breath music every day, outside of concerts, and they are not stupid. Some of our posts, especially the critical ones, do not give him the benefit of the doubt. I think the musicians deserve that. Here also, one has to look at the wide variety of opinions expressed here, there are reviews that respect the artist's skill and professionalism even if they are critical.
And finally, he concludes nothing is going to change. I do not agree. Definitely, the feedback we all provide each other about our posts make us learn and cause an overall change. That is all one can expect in a public forum like this. And Krishna can be one of the catalyst in that feedback process.
Interesting. I am a bit disappointed that Krishna takes a totally dim view of the conversations that take place here. In fact, he is not even strongly acknowledging the different points of views that are expressed here. His article is a distortion of what actually happens here. Interestingly that distortion is what he himself complains about. There is no single point of view. On his bhakthi related article, there were numerous point of view with several people actually supporting his position.
The anti-dote for free speech is more free speech. He is very much welcome here to participate in the discussions with us. I can also understand he does not want to get in the fray but complaining that we did not check with him by email is mildly preposterous
If he does not feel welcome here to participate, I think it is fair we should take some responsibility in not having created that welcoming atmosphere. We can always improve on that count.
I have to acknowledge one point he makes. We do not consciously think that musicians like him live and breath music every day, outside of concerts, and they are not stupid. Some of our posts, especially the critical ones, do not give him the benefit of the doubt. I think the musicians deserve that. Here also, one has to look at the wide variety of opinions expressed here, there are reviews that respect the artist's skill and professionalism even if they are critical.
And finally, he concludes nothing is going to change. I do not agree. Definitely, the feedback we all provide each other about our posts make us learn and cause an overall change. That is all one can expect in a public forum like this. And Krishna can be one of the catalyst in that feedback process.
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shashi
- Posts: 8
- Joined: 16 Dec 2008, 10:17
My first peeve is the header in his website called "Krishna Uvacha". Reeks of a big ego. Or if it is meant to be a joke, it seems to be a rather poor one. Coming to his peeves, I find them rather childish. Being a public performer, he should actually EXPECT discussions about his music and all the other activities he is involved in by faceless people. This is a basic given in public life. It is quite silly of him to expect that people should reveal their true identities in any public fora. Even people who write using actual names could well be using false names! Expecting this to change is kind of ridiculous. The point is why can't he take constructive feedback in the right spirit irrespective of who gives it? If he doesn't see any validity in it, he can always shrug it off and move on.
I followed the Indian Express coverage last year, thanks to a friend who was writing there. Personally I found their coverage very interesting unlike the staid and biased Hindu reviews. I found TMK's letter to the Carnatica team to be in a highly offensive language. Apart from ridiculing the new format of the point-system, he also demanded to know the identities of the reviewers. Why? So that he could collar them and ask for explanations or pick a fight with them in public as has become his recent habit? The Carnatica team gave a fitting reply, but TMK has conveniently forgotten the points made by them and is only giving a one-sided picture, the same thing that he is accusing this forum of doing to him!
If at all anyone can complain about this forum, it is the excessive coverage given to two artistes - Sanjay and TMK. As long as the coverage was in his favour, TMK seemed to have no problems with it, did he?
I followed the Indian Express coverage last year, thanks to a friend who was writing there. Personally I found their coverage very interesting unlike the staid and biased Hindu reviews. I found TMK's letter to the Carnatica team to be in a highly offensive language. Apart from ridiculing the new format of the point-system, he also demanded to know the identities of the reviewers. Why? So that he could collar them and ask for explanations or pick a fight with them in public as has become his recent habit? The Carnatica team gave a fitting reply, but TMK has conveniently forgotten the points made by them and is only giving a one-sided picture, the same thing that he is accusing this forum of doing to him!
If at all anyone can complain about this forum, it is the excessive coverage given to two artistes - Sanjay and TMK. As long as the coverage was in his favour, TMK seemed to have no problems with it, did he?
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iamkirinlemon
- Posts: 31
- Joined: 13 Jun 2008, 21:09
I used to play bridge with some friends. As you know, bridge is a complicated game with many conventions and systems. I am hardly an expert, but in our group I happened to be the most experienced. There was one guy who was a beginner ... he would read a little bit in a book, and then have long, fiery debates about corner cases and minor points that were not relevant in 99% of situations, even though he still was not an experienced player himself. It was almost as if he did this just so he could argue and sound intelligent.
I surmise that TMK feels the average rasika on this forum is of a type similar to that guy in my bridge group. And this opinion is shared by several performing artists I have met. They read technical discussions on this forum about ragas, talas, tanis, and so on, by unnamed folk who are likely incapable of public performance, and conclude that the people here don't know what they are talking about. This in turn causes them to look down on the opinions expressed here.
As far as the rest is concerned though, I agree that TMK's article is disappointing ... you would think someone with his fame would have thicker skin. What he, and many artists really, should do is join the discussions on this forum, make their identities known, and educate / weigh in when necessary. The anonymous crowd who follows this forum will then quickly figure out who they should be listening to.
I surmise that TMK feels the average rasika on this forum is of a type similar to that guy in my bridge group. And this opinion is shared by several performing artists I have met. They read technical discussions on this forum about ragas, talas, tanis, and so on, by unnamed folk who are likely incapable of public performance, and conclude that the people here don't know what they are talking about. This in turn causes them to look down on the opinions expressed here.
As far as the rest is concerned though, I agree that TMK's article is disappointing ... you would think someone with his fame would have thicker skin. What he, and many artists really, should do is join the discussions on this forum, make their identities known, and educate / weigh in when necessary. The anonymous crowd who follows this forum will then quickly figure out who they should be listening to.
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true_rasika
- Posts: 20
- Joined: 06 May 2007, 18:49
I was shocked when I read TMK's post on his website. The same Internet that is bringing RasikAs the world over together is ironically doing great damage to TMK's reputation as well. He has globally broadcast his condescending / indiffirent attitude and possibly risks losing RasikAs in many countries.
Fellow RasikAs might perhaps recall my remarks about TMK after his concert at IACRF NJ last year. I had remarked that "the praise lavished on TMK was quite excessive. IMHO, I think too much praise too early in life leads to complacency, and what people from back home in India used to call and perhaps still refer to as 'head-weight' - I am not implying that TMK has this already but my fear is that he seems to be heading in that direction." There were several die-hard fans who came down heavily on me in that thread for criticizing TMK.
Sadly enough, it does seem that TMK is needlessly digressing from his strengths / gifts which are several. He would do well to silence himself offstage and let his music and only his music 'do the talking' for him for the next several years. Any more such immature remarks and serious rasikAs would stop taking him seriously altogether.
Fellow RasikAs might perhaps recall my remarks about TMK after his concert at IACRF NJ last year. I had remarked that "the praise lavished on TMK was quite excessive. IMHO, I think too much praise too early in life leads to complacency, and what people from back home in India used to call and perhaps still refer to as 'head-weight' - I am not implying that TMK has this already but my fear is that he seems to be heading in that direction." There were several die-hard fans who came down heavily on me in that thread for criticizing TMK.
Sadly enough, it does seem that TMK is needlessly digressing from his strengths / gifts which are several. He would do well to silence himself offstage and let his music and only his music 'do the talking' for him for the next several years. Any more such immature remarks and serious rasikAs would stop taking him seriously altogether.
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vageyakara
- Posts: 602
- Joined: 01 Dec 2006, 20:24
I totally agree with what PREPOSTEROUS(member) AND OTHErRS WHO HAVE SPELT THEIR VIEWS in depth It is high time TMK desists from ADHIKAPRASANGITHANAM, flippant talkings/writing s and concentrates on developping the finer aspects of music, and the day may not be far off when the already waning popularity becomes a permanent factor
'R A S I K O UVAJCHA'
'R A S I K O UVAJCHA'
Last edited by vageyakara on 13 Jan 2009, 14:11, edited 1 time in total.
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annamalai
- Posts: 355
- Joined: 23 Nov 2006, 07:01
true_rasika, I remember you. You were peeved at the organizer speeches and the fundamental right to take bathroom breaks in the middle of songs and spewed out harsh words.
I feel that sometimes there are unfair comments -
Why did TMK sang only trinity krithis as a theme in Jaya TV. If anyone has to object to that theme it should have been Jaya TV ?
Another instance was the review of Sanjay's Music Academy concert. If a rasika liked Sanjay's concert, he or she should write about it. Instead there is rumor like reporting about the probable attendance of Sanjay's concert by TMK while and there is no mention of other artists who attended Sanjay's concert - when those other artists came in and when they left and what is their bakthi quotient level.
coolkarni, what about the point - in rasikas forum due to anonymous logins - some of the rasikas say whatever they want. Rasikas also should ponder that feedback.
There was also a posting on the top users of this forum. My reaction is - Gosh, it may be useful to reduce the time spent in surfing web, instead listen to good music. plenty available at sangeethapriya.
I feel that sometimes there are unfair comments -
Why did TMK sang only trinity krithis as a theme in Jaya TV. If anyone has to object to that theme it should have been Jaya TV ?
Another instance was the review of Sanjay's Music Academy concert. If a rasika liked Sanjay's concert, he or she should write about it. Instead there is rumor like reporting about the probable attendance of Sanjay's concert by TMK while and there is no mention of other artists who attended Sanjay's concert - when those other artists came in and when they left and what is their bakthi quotient level.
coolkarni, what about the point - in rasikas forum due to anonymous logins - some of the rasikas say whatever they want. Rasikas also should ponder that feedback.
There was also a posting on the top users of this forum. My reaction is - Gosh, it may be useful to reduce the time spent in surfing web, instead listen to good music. plenty available at sangeethapriya.
Last edited by annamalai on 13 Jan 2009, 14:42, edited 1 time in total.
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rajumds
- Posts: 715
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 11:16
The point was whether singing trinity's kritis (which is being done day in day out at all sabhas) is worthy of being taken as theme as compared to topics taken up by other artists.Why did TMK sang only trinity krithis as a theme in Jaya TV. If anyone has to object to that theme it should have been Jaya TV ?
This is an unwarranted comment. If you happen to know the profile of the posters you will understand that they are top ranking professionals in their own field and value thier time. They or for that matter any forum member , doesn't need any advice about the time spent on the forum.There was also a posting on the top users of this forum. My reaction is - Gosh, it may be useful to reduce the time spent in surfing web, instead listen to good music. plenty available at sangeethapriya
Please go thro the post made by them and you will be musically much richer .
Regarding Sanjay's acedemy concert & TMK's attendance you have discussed threadbare in that thread and there is no need to rake it up again.
Irony is , it is your anonymity which made you post against other froum members.
Last edited by rajumds on 13 Jan 2009, 15:05, edited 1 time in total.
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ksugavanam
- Posts: 13
- Joined: 23 Nov 2007, 21:42
I was the one who started the "Preposterous Response by TMK" thread. I read the article posted by TMK in his website and here are my views.
1. I wrote under my given name and not under anonymity; not that I consider writing under a different name is wrong.
2. People whom I know wrote mails to TMK, and all of them got a standard automated reply. I checked with them again, and as on date, none of them got any replies. Therefore, I view TMK's statements expressing that people should have email’d him is only an attempt to save himself from public discussion and embarrassment, since he can conveniently dump the private emails into the trash folder, as he has. In fact, it is because it got posted in the web that TMK was forced to respond and defend himself. If he does not want public discussion about his public comments, he should simply keep quiet.
3. While TMK goes on cribbing about why no one checked about the veracity or the context in which he spoke, he has not denied what was reported - because he knows it’s true. It was a report and not a review - and it was none other than Mrs. Gowri Ramnarayanan, Senior most Carnatic Writer for The Hindu, who filed the report. I can confirm that what was reported was verbatim what TMK spoke. I heard TMK. In fact, if anything, the report could not and did not bring out TMK’s audacity in its entirety.
"I am sorry to say this but some of the reviews which people on the Internet think are wonderful are actually factually totally wrong (and huge discussions take place on wrong information)"
1. I wrote under my given name and not under anonymity; not that I consider writing under a different name is wrong.
2. People whom I know wrote mails to TMK, and all of them got a standard automated reply. I checked with them again, and as on date, none of them got any replies. Therefore, I view TMK's statements expressing that people should have email’d him is only an attempt to save himself from public discussion and embarrassment, since he can conveniently dump the private emails into the trash folder, as he has. In fact, it is because it got posted in the web that TMK was forced to respond and defend himself. If he does not want public discussion about his public comments, he should simply keep quiet.
3. While TMK goes on cribbing about why no one checked about the veracity or the context in which he spoke, he has not denied what was reported - because he knows it’s true. It was a report and not a review - and it was none other than Mrs. Gowri Ramnarayanan, Senior most Carnatic Writer for The Hindu, who filed the report. I can confirm that what was reported was verbatim what TMK spoke. I heard TMK. In fact, if anything, the report could not and did not bring out TMK’s audacity in its entirety.
"I am sorry to say this but some of the reviews which people on the Internet think are wonderful are actually factually totally wrong (and huge discussions take place on wrong information)"
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iamkirinlemon
- Posts: 31
- Joined: 13 Jun 2008, 21:09
coolkarnicoolkarni wrote:iamkirinlemon
There is no need for you to surmise about what X Y or Z is thinking about the average rasika.
The level of discussions here , is much better than what you try to portray with your your Bridge analogy (expert or not).
There is no need or you to discuss on behalf of an artist.Or pontificate about the crowd here.
We would be happy if you Just get started with your views on a given subject and continue to put your name under it.
Like most of us have done here.
That analogy is an exact characterization of plenty of in-person feedback I have gotten directly from several artists. My intent was purely to pass that along. Do with it what you will. I have personally read several threads here that give me the same impression, but I understand this is the internet (TMK maybe does not), and you have to pick and choose what you read. This is pretty much the only online forum I have found for Carnatic music discussion, so I expect to see all levels of quality and sophistication represented here, and I have seen the full range. I'm not an artist, I'm just some guy who has learned some and likes to listen and perform some, so mine is just one opinion in the cloud.
My point though is that TMK's views are not held in a vacuum, this is a general view held by several in the "performing community". You all know artists personally as well and you know their views, so maybe it was wrong of me to offer this feedback. I still think the right thing is for artists to be thick skinned, and to come here and post openly.
Last edited by iamkirinlemon on 13 Jan 2009, 20:42, edited 1 time in total.
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arunk
- Posts: 3424
- Joined: 07 Feb 2010, 21:41
my 2 cents:
As echoed by VK, I agree with TMK that there is a tendency among some/many rasikas to ( at times ) underestimate/forget/ignore the musical ability of artists - i.e. the amount of practical knowledge and expertise required to make it in the cm field - particularly for someone to be in the limelight. I also think we underestimate the difficulty in flawless performance day in and day out in the performing arts field. Some of us do so when we let our prejudices/preferences speak too much (e.g. comparison with other artists, or with yester year maestros). I have pointed this in the past, but I think in general this continues to be the case.
We also sometimes over-extend whatever little knowledge we have gained - which itself could be half-baked. "Arm-chair knowledge" can be quite unreliable - we should never forget that.
But it is very clear to me that rasikas want more knowledge. Many of us thirst for it. And here is where I find that artist community need to do a lot more. Lec-dems help but still IMO they are not at the ideal level for rasika consumption. In my personal experience, I find a paucity of actual/useful information from the artist community themselves. Knowledge dissemination is actually quite pitiful. Even here in the forum, when questions are posed or when information is presented but with the qualification "experts please confirm/clarify if this is right" - I rarely see artists come forth with clarification. I find amateurs (i.e. learners) do it, but very rarely artists. Sure, top artists are busy and many may think "as if we have free time", but there must be *someone* with some time at sometimes right? So to not reach out, but then comment "I find it amusing that discussions take place on factually incorrect information" - ouch
- below the belt !
But then based on my interaction with artist community (not a lot, but enough), I find it quite common for the conversations to be dominated in indirect fault finding in the form of snide remarks - aimed at other artists, as well as everyone else (other than fans). So this is perhaps all in the game. Note, I do realize the above comes off as generalization. I do not mean to club all artists here, but based on my personal experience, this is what I have taken away - too much finger pointing in the community.
Arun
As echoed by VK, I agree with TMK that there is a tendency among some/many rasikas to ( at times ) underestimate/forget/ignore the musical ability of artists - i.e. the amount of practical knowledge and expertise required to make it in the cm field - particularly for someone to be in the limelight. I also think we underestimate the difficulty in flawless performance day in and day out in the performing arts field. Some of us do so when we let our prejudices/preferences speak too much (e.g. comparison with other artists, or with yester year maestros). I have pointed this in the past, but I think in general this continues to be the case.
We also sometimes over-extend whatever little knowledge we have gained - which itself could be half-baked. "Arm-chair knowledge" can be quite unreliable - we should never forget that.
But it is very clear to me that rasikas want more knowledge. Many of us thirst for it. And here is where I find that artist community need to do a lot more. Lec-dems help but still IMO they are not at the ideal level for rasika consumption. In my personal experience, I find a paucity of actual/useful information from the artist community themselves. Knowledge dissemination is actually quite pitiful. Even here in the forum, when questions are posed or when information is presented but with the qualification "experts please confirm/clarify if this is right" - I rarely see artists come forth with clarification. I find amateurs (i.e. learners) do it, but very rarely artists. Sure, top artists are busy and many may think "as if we have free time", but there must be *someone* with some time at sometimes right? So to not reach out, but then comment "I find it amusing that discussions take place on factually incorrect information" - ouch
- below the belt ! But then based on my interaction with artist community (not a lot, but enough), I find it quite common for the conversations to be dominated in indirect fault finding in the form of snide remarks - aimed at other artists, as well as everyone else (other than fans). So this is perhaps all in the game. Note, I do realize the above comes off as generalization. I do not mean to club all artists here, but based on my personal experience, this is what I have taken away - too much finger pointing in the community.
Arun
Last edited by arunk on 13 Jan 2009, 21:31, edited 1 time in total.
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srikant1987
- Posts: 2246
- Joined: 10 Jun 2007, 12:23
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sampath77
- Posts: 15
- Joined: 19 Dec 2008, 15:38
I have read a lot of T. M. Krishna's recent expositions, but this latest one takes the CAKE!
I made a special effort to re-read his recent article in The Hindu wherein he talks about several pakkavadhyam artists (NOT NAMED) turning up late for concerts. He talks about main artistes (NOT NAMED) giving victorious smiles after singing complicated a rare raga or a complicated kanakku. He also talks about main artistes (NOT NAMED) squeezing out pakkavadhyam artistes in financial dealings.
And now this very same T. M. Krishna is suddenly anti-anonymity and pro open-disclosure.
I am sorry to say that this man has taken hypocrisy to new lows.
I made a special effort to re-read his recent article in The Hindu wherein he talks about several pakkavadhyam artists (NOT NAMED) turning up late for concerts. He talks about main artistes (NOT NAMED) giving victorious smiles after singing complicated a rare raga or a complicated kanakku. He also talks about main artistes (NOT NAMED) squeezing out pakkavadhyam artistes in financial dealings.
And now this very same T. M. Krishna is suddenly anti-anonymity and pro open-disclosure.
I am sorry to say that this man has taken hypocrisy to new lows.
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inconsequential
- Posts: 124
- Joined: 22 Mar 2005, 00:10
Greetings to all. I have been away from the forum due to many constraints. Since I had also contributed (in not so nice a manner) to the thread that srI TMK is responding to, I am writing a bit here, for completeness/appropriateness. Not all of what he reads here is random hits from anonymous people.
If the music itself has inherent sowkyam, melody (sruthi and laya shudham), some little vishayam in the form of innovation, half of the audience would be blind (or deaf) to his non-musical renditions (writings, interviews). If from the word go, one has to see a distorted face and a mudra (even to hold a karvai at adhara shadjam - an opening sangathi of a rAma nI samAnamevaru). It appears, rasikas in general have become very patient, trying to look for inspired moments amidst a lot of 'noise', esp. when artists become very talkative.
It is quite funny to hear this '24x7' schedule and such things. If it is really 24x7 where from one gets the time for eating out at eateries, watch games, go to bombay in a car for a concert, travel around the world. Every profession has its own set of rules, period. Agreed, all contemporary artists put great efforts and are technically top-notch. It is a personal choice. He can choose to keep a simple day job and sing for his own pleasure, be an A grade AIR artist. Out of the blue, statements such as "Musicians have to sing on weekends also" (heard this in Hyd sometime) are just ridiculous. Some acknowledgement of one's faults at times, would be nice. While rendering the 'moulou gangA' viruttam made famous by the pitAmaha, he stopped to share with us the meaning of the fine verse. Pray if the verse was so dear to you, how come one fudges up the name of the composer srI appaiyya dIkShitar. He simply announced it as 'aiyyappa dIkShithar' and when a senior member of the audience corrected him, his only reponse was "oh, that is my dyslexia!" Most of us know that srI appaiyya dIkShithar was a great vEdAnti. So much for the 'respect'.
For all the great reviews he has had here, for his 'chowka' kAla renditions, I would like to say that in all his concerts I have been to, 60-70% of my nearest neighbours yawn and start looking here and there, restlessly waiting for the rendition to end. His kAlapramANam is variable during these renditions. About the mEl kAlam neravals and swara prastArams - It doesn't appear like he has taken those traits from pitAmaha's school and made them his own, integrating it into his own. Instead, he very obviously shifts into SSI mode, during those exercises. One wonders if rasikas really want that. Off late, he has been having issues with sruthi also it seems. Used to be a strong point. His vocalization (increasing nasal twang) and pronunciation are also becoming a casualty!
Finally, an average rasika probably just wants satisfaction and good taste, at the end of the concert. Sometimes, this taste is gone even as one reaches home. One wishes that we simply re-visit the 'bAla pAThams' of CM.
But, one hopes - for the Almighty has given them the gnyAnam and a voice to reach out.
As I write, I am listening to a simple, clear rendition of dinamaNi vamsa by Dr. S. Ramanathan, in the company of T Rukmini and UKS. A fine rendition, no fireworks. I am sure the taste of listening to this will linger on for days to come.
Please forgive me if this has come a bit harsh.
-r.varadharAjan
If the music itself has inherent sowkyam, melody (sruthi and laya shudham), some little vishayam in the form of innovation, half of the audience would be blind (or deaf) to his non-musical renditions (writings, interviews). If from the word go, one has to see a distorted face and a mudra (even to hold a karvai at adhara shadjam - an opening sangathi of a rAma nI samAnamevaru). It appears, rasikas in general have become very patient, trying to look for inspired moments amidst a lot of 'noise', esp. when artists become very talkative.
It is quite funny to hear this '24x7' schedule and such things. If it is really 24x7 where from one gets the time for eating out at eateries, watch games, go to bombay in a car for a concert, travel around the world. Every profession has its own set of rules, period. Agreed, all contemporary artists put great efforts and are technically top-notch. It is a personal choice. He can choose to keep a simple day job and sing for his own pleasure, be an A grade AIR artist. Out of the blue, statements such as "Musicians have to sing on weekends also" (heard this in Hyd sometime) are just ridiculous. Some acknowledgement of one's faults at times, would be nice. While rendering the 'moulou gangA' viruttam made famous by the pitAmaha, he stopped to share with us the meaning of the fine verse. Pray if the verse was so dear to you, how come one fudges up the name of the composer srI appaiyya dIkShitar. He simply announced it as 'aiyyappa dIkShithar' and when a senior member of the audience corrected him, his only reponse was "oh, that is my dyslexia!" Most of us know that srI appaiyya dIkShithar was a great vEdAnti. So much for the 'respect'.
For all the great reviews he has had here, for his 'chowka' kAla renditions, I would like to say that in all his concerts I have been to, 60-70% of my nearest neighbours yawn and start looking here and there, restlessly waiting for the rendition to end. His kAlapramANam is variable during these renditions. About the mEl kAlam neravals and swara prastArams - It doesn't appear like he has taken those traits from pitAmaha's school and made them his own, integrating it into his own. Instead, he very obviously shifts into SSI mode, during those exercises. One wonders if rasikas really want that. Off late, he has been having issues with sruthi also it seems. Used to be a strong point. His vocalization (increasing nasal twang) and pronunciation are also becoming a casualty!
Finally, an average rasika probably just wants satisfaction and good taste, at the end of the concert. Sometimes, this taste is gone even as one reaches home. One wishes that we simply re-visit the 'bAla pAThams' of CM.
But, one hopes - for the Almighty has given them the gnyAnam and a voice to reach out.
As I write, I am listening to a simple, clear rendition of dinamaNi vamsa by Dr. S. Ramanathan, in the company of T Rukmini and UKS. A fine rendition, no fireworks. I am sure the taste of listening to this will linger on for days to come.
Please forgive me if this has come a bit harsh.
-r.varadharAjan
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vijay
- Posts: 2522
- Joined: 27 Feb 2006, 16:06
I guess a number of Annamalai's complaints were on my doorstep. Venkat/Coolji - you have put it better than I ever could. Muddy waters call for careful steps - here goes:
I agree with Coolji that an acknowledgement by a star like TM Krishna is proof of the forum's increasing influence. While the people behind the effort can take a bow, it is important to recognize that this comes with responsibility. It is regrettably true that casual statements on this forum can lead to a lot of wrong impressions just as much as informed/expert opinions lead to a better understanding/appreciation for laymen like me.
Krishna's article might sound like an over-reaction but put yourself in his place for a moment. We used to have this thing called a "kambal pitai" in hostels in north India - 4-5 guys would accost the victim in a dark room, cover him in a blanket and beat him black and blue. The guy would be left licking his wounds, none the wiser about the aggressors who could be, for all he knew, his best friends...Anonymous posters pouring venom on an artiste is something similar. Yet it is something that a public personality has to get used to and Krishna is certainly not alone - There are many politicians, film stars, sport personalities who are pilloried on a daily basis in numerous fora/media across the country. Compared to the treatment meted out to these guys, I would say that we are exceedingly gentle with our musicians. This is one of the consequences of fame - as one of his fans, it is my hope that Krishna will learn to take these things in his stride rather than allow himself to be affected by negative energies.
TMK has also raised a number of other points that call for self-introspection. The most important is perhaps about anonymity. On the one hand, there is merit to the argument that firing from the shoulder of an anonymous handle is unfair to an artiste who presents herself and her art for the whole world to see. Yet it is a part of internet culture and here to stay. I don't find the need to use one myself but I do remember my reluctance to meet other forum members some years back only because I did not want to expose myself! OTOH, while a vast majority of anonymous users do not abuse their privilege, some sadly take it to the point where one wonders whether it should be made mandatory for members to declare their identity and contact details. Look at Tulip's post above - rattling off a string of defamatory statements without any evidence or the courage to put his/her name on it. But then again, why should CM stars be subject to special treatment when their cousins in films/sports/politics have learnt to swallow it.
Another important point he makes is about the quality of discussions on this forum and the qualifications of its members to pass judgments on music. This touches some raw nerves. As someone who has struggled with elemetary varnams for over 5 years before giving up, passing judgments on senior musicians does appear audacious at times. Yet, how many of us would think twice besides commenting on Tendulkar's straight drive or on Kamal Hasan's acting - even in public fora - and why should CM be any different?
Technical assertions with an "air of authority" are another matter. I have been guilty of this on occasion although I try to come clean on my limitations to a reasonable extent. But the point is that the "authoritativeness" is in the mind of the reader. Besides, we do have legitimate experts on this forum who do not hesitate to correct/contradict incorrect statements. I had made some inaccurate observations in my coverage of Prasanna venkataraman/TNS Krishna concerts and I remember fellow forum members showing me up. This is just how it should be and if we had more professionals participating, mistakes/wrong impressions of this kind could be avoided to a considerable extent. In any case, readers are surely aware that opinions/reviews/reports are not necessarily those of experts. But perhaps it is worth having a standard disclaimer as a header on the Kuctheri Reviews thread that views and opinions need not be treated as such.
Responding to the point on professional musicians 'looking down" on this forum, I don't think we are really looking for any sort of approval. Most of us are here to talk about music - some, like me, are curious to exchange views on technical matters and others prefer to confine themselves to their experiences. Given that this is an "open" forum, opinions can be expected to range from the erudite to the ludicrous. Speaking for myself, I have benefited immensely from being on this forum and on Sangeetham prior to that but that is just my experience - there is no pretense of expertise on this forum in general, although we do have plenty of experts - complaints about the technical merit of discussions and the performing ability of forum members completely miss the point.
Having said that, I can't help wondering how many of these worthies, who "look down"
I agree with Coolji that an acknowledgement by a star like TM Krishna is proof of the forum's increasing influence. While the people behind the effort can take a bow, it is important to recognize that this comes with responsibility. It is regrettably true that casual statements on this forum can lead to a lot of wrong impressions just as much as informed/expert opinions lead to a better understanding/appreciation for laymen like me.
Krishna's article might sound like an over-reaction but put yourself in his place for a moment. We used to have this thing called a "kambal pitai" in hostels in north India - 4-5 guys would accost the victim in a dark room, cover him in a blanket and beat him black and blue. The guy would be left licking his wounds, none the wiser about the aggressors who could be, for all he knew, his best friends...Anonymous posters pouring venom on an artiste is something similar. Yet it is something that a public personality has to get used to and Krishna is certainly not alone - There are many politicians, film stars, sport personalities who are pilloried on a daily basis in numerous fora/media across the country. Compared to the treatment meted out to these guys, I would say that we are exceedingly gentle with our musicians. This is one of the consequences of fame - as one of his fans, it is my hope that Krishna will learn to take these things in his stride rather than allow himself to be affected by negative energies.
TMK has also raised a number of other points that call for self-introspection. The most important is perhaps about anonymity. On the one hand, there is merit to the argument that firing from the shoulder of an anonymous handle is unfair to an artiste who presents herself and her art for the whole world to see. Yet it is a part of internet culture and here to stay. I don't find the need to use one myself but I do remember my reluctance to meet other forum members some years back only because I did not want to expose myself! OTOH, while a vast majority of anonymous users do not abuse their privilege, some sadly take it to the point where one wonders whether it should be made mandatory for members to declare their identity and contact details. Look at Tulip's post above - rattling off a string of defamatory statements without any evidence or the courage to put his/her name on it. But then again, why should CM stars be subject to special treatment when their cousins in films/sports/politics have learnt to swallow it.
Another important point he makes is about the quality of discussions on this forum and the qualifications of its members to pass judgments on music. This touches some raw nerves. As someone who has struggled with elemetary varnams for over 5 years before giving up, passing judgments on senior musicians does appear audacious at times. Yet, how many of us would think twice besides commenting on Tendulkar's straight drive or on Kamal Hasan's acting - even in public fora - and why should CM be any different?
Technical assertions with an "air of authority" are another matter. I have been guilty of this on occasion although I try to come clean on my limitations to a reasonable extent. But the point is that the "authoritativeness" is in the mind of the reader. Besides, we do have legitimate experts on this forum who do not hesitate to correct/contradict incorrect statements. I had made some inaccurate observations in my coverage of Prasanna venkataraman/TNS Krishna concerts and I remember fellow forum members showing me up. This is just how it should be and if we had more professionals participating, mistakes/wrong impressions of this kind could be avoided to a considerable extent. In any case, readers are surely aware that opinions/reviews/reports are not necessarily those of experts. But perhaps it is worth having a standard disclaimer as a header on the Kuctheri Reviews thread that views and opinions need not be treated as such.
Responding to the point on professional musicians 'looking down" on this forum, I don't think we are really looking for any sort of approval. Most of us are here to talk about music - some, like me, are curious to exchange views on technical matters and others prefer to confine themselves to their experiences. Given that this is an "open" forum, opinions can be expected to range from the erudite to the ludicrous. Speaking for myself, I have benefited immensely from being on this forum and on Sangeetham prior to that but that is just my experience - there is no pretense of expertise on this forum in general, although we do have plenty of experts - complaints about the technical merit of discussions and the performing ability of forum members completely miss the point.
Having said that, I can't help wondering how many of these worthies, who "look down"
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cmlover
- Posts: 11498
- Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36
Dear incon:
Nice to see you here (I missed your 'preposterous' appearance
I relish your scholarly but tasteful remarks as of yore and the balance in your criticism.
I am shocked to hear an artiste mangling revered 'appaiya dikShitar'; especially a siShya of pitamaha!
TMK needs to come down from his dizzy pedestal and listen to what we the non-expert but intelligent Rasikas discuss. Arun makes a valid point on the non-participation of the performers in our intellectual discussions. In the medical profession we hesitate discussing other physicians and their therapeutic modes out of professional courtesy. But then we freely discuss issues relating to Medicine and Therapeutics in the interest of fostering Science and good practice. Nor do we decry other non-medical scientists for their lack of practical experience. In fact ultimately they determine the way Medicine will (ought to) be practised for the good of the community. I guess a similar code of ethics is needed in CM. We Rasikas are not silent consumers of CM, but on the otherhand are the 'Guardians' of our hoary system and our voice must be heard and not derided upon!
rasika uvAca:
'rasikEna dhAryatE "CM" rasikEna rOcatE kritiH |
rasikEna jIvati vidvaan ca sarvaM rasikE pratiShtitaM ||'
(Rasika is the support of CM, rasika is the relisher of music (kritis);
a vidvaan is sustained by the Rasika (and in fact) everthing depends on the Rasikas)
Nice to see you here (I missed your 'preposterous' appearance
I relish your scholarly but tasteful remarks as of yore and the balance in your criticism.
I am shocked to hear an artiste mangling revered 'appaiya dikShitar'; especially a siShya of pitamaha!
TMK needs to come down from his dizzy pedestal and listen to what we the non-expert but intelligent Rasikas discuss. Arun makes a valid point on the non-participation of the performers in our intellectual discussions. In the medical profession we hesitate discussing other physicians and their therapeutic modes out of professional courtesy. But then we freely discuss issues relating to Medicine and Therapeutics in the interest of fostering Science and good practice. Nor do we decry other non-medical scientists for their lack of practical experience. In fact ultimately they determine the way Medicine will (ought to) be practised for the good of the community. I guess a similar code of ethics is needed in CM. We Rasikas are not silent consumers of CM, but on the otherhand are the 'Guardians' of our hoary system and our voice must be heard and not derided upon!
rasika uvAca:
'rasikEna dhAryatE "CM" rasikEna rOcatE kritiH |
rasikEna jIvati vidvaan ca sarvaM rasikE pratiShtitaM ||'
(Rasika is the support of CM, rasika is the relisher of music (kritis);
a vidvaan is sustained by the Rasika (and in fact) everthing depends on the Rasikas)
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mahavishnu
- Posts: 3341
- Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 21:56
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kadambam
- Posts: 104
- Joined: 12 Jan 2007, 04:10
It is unfortunate that this topic has been the 'talk of the season' as against Sowmya's tirade against V Subramaniam last season. It is evident that Krishna & so many other Carnatic Musicians read this forum.
During one pot-luck dinner conversations, a professor openly criticised the Carnatic Musicians for looking down upon music fans as though they are midgets. And his complain was that CM was not performed so that common man could appreciate and enjoy it.Is this the curse of all classical arts? i don't have the answer!!
Interestingly, TMK in that infamous article mentions about a 'lowly concert' (--I take great offence at the idea of ‘lowly kutcheri’. You are lowering yourself when you make a statement like that. What’s lowly about a concert? The kutcheri by itself is not pandering to the people. It is my experience. The audience comes to experience my experience on the stage.--TMK)
And in turn he turns out to be judgemental about the rasikas (--Yes the rasikas of course are not stupid but just because one reads every available material on the Internet or elsewhere on carnatic music and has heard numerous concerts does not mean that they have the same expertise as musicians. This is actually true of any field.--TMK)
TMK has given seminars on how CM can be successfully used for Management coaching, & if i am right he must have done this with a 'Rasika is a Customer' approach. Customer's feedback in Amazon.com is a critical factor in customer behavior & is done in the basis of anonymity. We buy/sell based on anonymous feedback & have accepted it as an integral part of Internet Age. Even some newspaper reviews (used to have) or still have anonymous reviewers. Content gives credibility to the anonymity. And that too, a forum such as ours where the moderators act as a 'censor board' to ensure nothing goes overboard.
TMK is becoming a victim of his own popularity/ego.As he rightly mentioned, concert attendance may not be impacted by these remarks. If at all, the impact will be on his musical identity. Quoting him, he lives by music 24/7 and his thoughts,words and actions are an integral part of his creative inputs/outputs.
During one pot-luck dinner conversations, a professor openly criticised the Carnatic Musicians for looking down upon music fans as though they are midgets. And his complain was that CM was not performed so that common man could appreciate and enjoy it.Is this the curse of all classical arts? i don't have the answer!!
Interestingly, TMK in that infamous article mentions about a 'lowly concert' (--I take great offence at the idea of ‘lowly kutcheri’. You are lowering yourself when you make a statement like that. What’s lowly about a concert? The kutcheri by itself is not pandering to the people. It is my experience. The audience comes to experience my experience on the stage.--TMK)
And in turn he turns out to be judgemental about the rasikas (--Yes the rasikas of course are not stupid but just because one reads every available material on the Internet or elsewhere on carnatic music and has heard numerous concerts does not mean that they have the same expertise as musicians. This is actually true of any field.--TMK)
TMK has given seminars on how CM can be successfully used for Management coaching, & if i am right he must have done this with a 'Rasika is a Customer' approach. Customer's feedback in Amazon.com is a critical factor in customer behavior & is done in the basis of anonymity. We buy/sell based on anonymous feedback & have accepted it as an integral part of Internet Age. Even some newspaper reviews (used to have) or still have anonymous reviewers. Content gives credibility to the anonymity. And that too, a forum such as ours where the moderators act as a 'censor board' to ensure nothing goes overboard.
TMK is becoming a victim of his own popularity/ego.As he rightly mentioned, concert attendance may not be impacted by these remarks. If at all, the impact will be on his musical identity. Quoting him, he lives by music 24/7 and his thoughts,words and actions are an integral part of his creative inputs/outputs.
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cmlover
- Posts: 11498
- Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36
Parenthetically one should be aware that we are all not that anonymous since one can send 'forum e-mail' by clicking on the ID. Most of the emails are genuine since we discourage pseudo membership!
After all what's in a name ID but that it is a gateway to a genuine email
TMK is at liberty to contact any of us if he so wishes!
After all what's in a name ID but that it is a gateway to a genuine email
TMK is at liberty to contact any of us if he so wishes!
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rajeshnat
- Posts: 10145
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:04
Just few points about carnatica's review in Indian express that came last year.
=======================================================
Incidentally few of our forum regular kutcheri posters volunteered to give reviews . (Infact one other reviewer asked me to send a review of an artist which she/he picked which I typed and sent , but unfortunately did not get published, for sure the reason is nothing but the space given in newspapers is very limited). To that extent internet is great for sure 100% we can publish what we write.
While I wrote the review the format was the song list in our usual format and then a brief review . But one thing that I did not like in the format is to finally rate with 3 or 4 or 5 stars ranking , just like cinema reviews . To me that star ranking is not right ,possibly it is right in these forums as we have a unlimited real estate to write reviews whereas newspapers have limited real estate and quite frankly at times the artist will not have great accompanist and hence the overall concert can come down . To that extent what TMK told about that star ranking is to me a perfect feedback.
But on the other hand all the reviewers were put as a foot note by carnatica in indian express , to an extent there was only partial anonymity there. Usually the reviews in indian express is not even 10% of the hindu, to that extent carnatica must be congragulated.
Just few observations about shri TMK
===========================
Having said all that Shri TMK could have shown little restraint . Incidentally despite anonymity or non anonymity there is a superb link when you click on the profile of every user, that link called "View all your topics" that gives a clean view for you to first of all judge every reviewer , that insight will help all of us inclusive of him.
As cmlover beautifully put , shri TMK can choose to come here and register just like few artists like mannArkoil balAji,erode , neyveli ,suryaprakAsh and Gayathri Venkat etal... LET US NOT FORGET THE FACT THAT INTERNET REVIEWS IS GOING UP , AND NEWSPAPER REVIEWS ARE GOING DOWN, but still newspaper has got real absolute majority in terms of artist reach . In just 10 years INTERNET WILL OVERTAKE.
=======================================================
Incidentally few of our forum regular kutcheri posters volunteered to give reviews . (Infact one other reviewer asked me to send a review of an artist which she/he picked which I typed and sent , but unfortunately did not get published, for sure the reason is nothing but the space given in newspapers is very limited). To that extent internet is great for sure 100% we can publish what we write.
While I wrote the review the format was the song list in our usual format and then a brief review . But one thing that I did not like in the format is to finally rate with 3 or 4 or 5 stars ranking , just like cinema reviews . To me that star ranking is not right ,possibly it is right in these forums as we have a unlimited real estate to write reviews whereas newspapers have limited real estate and quite frankly at times the artist will not have great accompanist and hence the overall concert can come down . To that extent what TMK told about that star ranking is to me a perfect feedback.
But on the other hand all the reviewers were put as a foot note by carnatica in indian express , to an extent there was only partial anonymity there. Usually the reviews in indian express is not even 10% of the hindu, to that extent carnatica must be congragulated.
Just few observations about shri TMK
===========================
Having said all that Shri TMK could have shown little restraint . Incidentally despite anonymity or non anonymity there is a superb link when you click on the profile of every user, that link called "View all your topics" that gives a clean view for you to first of all judge every reviewer , that insight will help all of us inclusive of him.
As cmlover beautifully put , shri TMK can choose to come here and register just like few artists like mannArkoil balAji,erode , neyveli ,suryaprakAsh and Gayathri Venkat etal... LET US NOT FORGET THE FACT THAT INTERNET REVIEWS IS GOING UP , AND NEWSPAPER REVIEWS ARE GOING DOWN, but still newspaper has got real absolute majority in terms of artist reach . In just 10 years INTERNET WILL OVERTAKE.
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tamizhkizchan
- Posts: 4
- Joined: 18 Dec 2008, 10:14
TMK has chosen a path of self-destruction. He opens his mouth (literally!) and, apparently (per emails received by him), crap comes out. As Sampath77 rightly states, his hyprocrisy has truly reached new lows. I just wonder what fake IDs does he use to right on this forum
The pompousness of some "senior" rasikas on this forum continues to amaze me. To assume that a few 100 self-titled rasikas seem powerful enough to influence/arouse artists' interests in this forum is prepostorous. For all you know, this forum is "time-pass" for artists....Please do not forget that for every "rasika" from this forum at a concert, there are 999 true rasikas out there who are blissfully unaware of this forum and who drive artists' popularity by their sheer attendance at concerts.
The pompousness of some "senior" rasikas on this forum continues to amaze me. To assume that a few 100 self-titled rasikas seem powerful enough to influence/arouse artists' interests in this forum is prepostorous. For all you know, this forum is "time-pass" for artists....Please do not forget that for every "rasika" from this forum at a concert, there are 999 true rasikas out there who are blissfully unaware of this forum and who drive artists' popularity by their sheer attendance at concerts.
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vijay
- Posts: 2522
- Joined: 27 Feb 2006, 16:06
Quite true Tamizhkizhchan - a majority of rasikas would probably not be aware of this forum - this is (fortunately) not mass media yet but I think it can be safely said that a good number of performing artistes and students do take an occasional look - some, as you are aware, are also members. Therefore, it does have some influence - as is quite evident from TMK's response. This does not mean that a few posts are going to alter the course of CM.
BTW there is no pomposity involved here nor is there any presumption of "power" - it would be quite absurd for a rasika to harbour any such illusions. In fact I miss the "anonymity"(to borrow a TMK-ism!) of the early days - with greater attention, one has to be careful about what one is saying which may dilute the informal nature of this community.
BTW there is no pomposity involved here nor is there any presumption of "power" - it would be quite absurd for a rasika to harbour any such illusions. In fact I miss the "anonymity"(to borrow a TMK-ism!) of the early days - with greater attention, one has to be careful about what one is saying which may dilute the informal nature of this community.
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vainika
- Posts: 435
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 11:32
I've come to imagine rasikas.org as one large table in the canteen of a virtual sabha where we gather for 'adda' between concerts. People walk in and out. Concerts are discussed. Opinions aplenty. Musicians peek in once in a while to see what's on offer. One might bite into the occasional chilli or balk at the excess of salt in the chutney, but by and large the food and conversation are sumptuous, and the sense of community and camaraderie very real.
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annamalai
- Posts: 355
- Joined: 23 Nov 2006, 07:01
Vainika,
Great summation. My view is similar. This forum provides after pongal or dinner - thinnai arattai - entertainment ! Not to take this more seriously beyond that. For people living outside India, this forum provides, a window, although increasingly a biased view, to understand the musical happenings at Chennai. So, a filter is needed to get a more objective view.
rajumuds,
Your credibility would be increased if you took the similar exception when folks made out-of-line comments about some artists.
ksugavanam,
I have written some emails to famous and not-so-famous musicians. I have not received any response as of today. What is the inference I can draw from those ?
sampath77,
TMK with his own name wrote an article in Hindu and has talked about - inequity in compensation and discrimination that prevails among accompanying artists. Since the accompanying artists depend on the main artist, they are not in a position to say much. BTW, Prof. TNKrishnan also talked about the same at the GNB day at IFAC. Some folks would feel hurt if they are plasticizing some of those discriminatory practices.
Great summation. My view is similar. This forum provides after pongal or dinner - thinnai arattai - entertainment ! Not to take this more seriously beyond that. For people living outside India, this forum provides, a window, although increasingly a biased view, to understand the musical happenings at Chennai. So, a filter is needed to get a more objective view.
rajumuds,
Your credibility would be increased if you took the similar exception when folks made out-of-line comments about some artists.
ksugavanam,
I have written some emails to famous and not-so-famous musicians. I have not received any response as of today. What is the inference I can draw from those ?
sampath77,
TMK with his own name wrote an article in Hindu and has talked about - inequity in compensation and discrimination that prevails among accompanying artists. Since the accompanying artists depend on the main artist, they are not in a position to say much. BTW, Prof. TNKrishnan also talked about the same at the GNB day at IFAC. Some folks would feel hurt if they are plasticizing some of those discriminatory practices.
Last edited by annamalai on 14 Jan 2009, 12:52, edited 1 time in total.
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Nick H
- Posts: 9473
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03
The word preposterous moves (aided by Preposterous) into 2009!
This time, I give my weight too. An ill-informed, ill-thought-out and largely unfounded 'article'. Quiet preposterous.
I'm not going to add anything to the discussion of the 'points'. My 'review' --- a disappointing piece of writing hardly worth thinking about.
This time, I give my weight too. An ill-informed, ill-thought-out and largely unfounded 'article'. Quiet preposterous.
I'm not going to add anything to the discussion of the 'points'. My 'review' --- a disappointing piece of writing hardly worth thinking about.
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arasi
- Posts: 16877
- Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30
My perhaps not-so-illuminating a response to all this:
This thread helped me pause a bit and take stock of my own state as a rasikA (not a highly educated one at that) and of how I react to performers who are not great communicators, well-mannered beings or otherwise. I do mind bad manners 'on stage' because it dampens my pleasure of experiencing music. Performers as individuals are really not my concern, though I would like them, as I do with the rest of humanity to behave in a dignified manner.
Coming to the performer's point of view--do they need to take stock too every now and then to renew their views about rasikAs? Yes. with such illuminating posts on this thread by my commendable fellow rasikAs who are diverse, and are at different levels in understanding music, one thing is very clear to me. As different as we all are, we ARE a community. I can speak for myself. I was one of those thousands of rasikAs who had chanced upon sangeetham and was excited that such a place for rasikAs existed! I found some good friends there who added a lot to my musical existence by way of their knowledge. When Sangeetham folded and Rasikas had filled the place of Sangeetham, I was unaware of it for a while and when I did find it with the names of old friends (anonymous mostly!), I remember exclaiming like a shipwrecked person, 'oh, I have found you all at last!'.
I often come across members who are well-versed in music and are fine rasikAs who merely read but not post. There are others like me who enjoy the banter. It is not merely to pass time that I participate but to learn (in capital letters) and to belong to a community which has one thing common to all of us. as varied as we are: to relish the music we love and to share our experiences. While knowledge is important, the very state of appreciating music is the core of this forum. And for me, it is the community spirit which has come as a bonus in the process.
So, it is important for performers to renew their assessment about us. CML's definition of rasikAs says it all. Let musicians not make a judgement about us based on some posts most of us on the forum do not relish ourselves.
I wonder--if TMK hones his skills as a writer, perhaps there may not be this much of a furor, perhaps. I don't know. All I wish is that he does not pay much attention to the accusations (Yes, developing a thick skin is part of a performer's existence when it comes to criticism) , but continues to grow as a musician and gives us more pleasure in his musical expression...
This thread helped me pause a bit and take stock of my own state as a rasikA (not a highly educated one at that) and of how I react to performers who are not great communicators, well-mannered beings or otherwise. I do mind bad manners 'on stage' because it dampens my pleasure of experiencing music. Performers as individuals are really not my concern, though I would like them, as I do with the rest of humanity to behave in a dignified manner.
Coming to the performer's point of view--do they need to take stock too every now and then to renew their views about rasikAs? Yes. with such illuminating posts on this thread by my commendable fellow rasikAs who are diverse, and are at different levels in understanding music, one thing is very clear to me. As different as we all are, we ARE a community. I can speak for myself. I was one of those thousands of rasikAs who had chanced upon sangeetham and was excited that such a place for rasikAs existed! I found some good friends there who added a lot to my musical existence by way of their knowledge. When Sangeetham folded and Rasikas had filled the place of Sangeetham, I was unaware of it for a while and when I did find it with the names of old friends (anonymous mostly!), I remember exclaiming like a shipwrecked person, 'oh, I have found you all at last!'.
I often come across members who are well-versed in music and are fine rasikAs who merely read but not post. There are others like me who enjoy the banter. It is not merely to pass time that I participate but to learn (in capital letters) and to belong to a community which has one thing common to all of us. as varied as we are: to relish the music we love and to share our experiences. While knowledge is important, the very state of appreciating music is the core of this forum. And for me, it is the community spirit which has come as a bonus in the process.
So, it is important for performers to renew their assessment about us. CML's definition of rasikAs says it all. Let musicians not make a judgement about us based on some posts most of us on the forum do not relish ourselves.
I wonder--if TMK hones his skills as a writer, perhaps there may not be this much of a furor, perhaps. I don't know. All I wish is that he does not pay much attention to the accusations (Yes, developing a thick skin is part of a performer's existence when it comes to criticism) , but continues to grow as a musician and gives us more pleasure in his musical expression...
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karthikbala
- Posts: 221
- Joined: 05 Feb 2010, 09:58
Sri Krishna is justified in saying that criticism from anonymous sources has to be taken with a pinch of salt. One cannot have a meaningful exchange with an anonymous poster who may have some axe to grind. For that very reason artistes like him should just ignore such fora. Anonymous criticism or attacks (honest or ill-motivated) should be viewed just as the price of celebrity. This is a rasikas forum and not a vidwan forum.
The odd intemperate posting and hype has to be taken in stride along with the numerous meaningful and substantive contributions of posters.
In any case, there is no dearth of dubious material in the print media despite having someone's name at the end of it. I would venture that main-stream media reviewing has to first mature further (whether classical or mass-entertainment genre) before one needs worry about quality of internet fora discussions!
The odd intemperate posting and hype has to be taken in stride along with the numerous meaningful and substantive contributions of posters.
In any case, there is no dearth of dubious material in the print media despite having someone's name at the end of it. I would venture that main-stream media reviewing has to first mature further (whether classical or mass-entertainment genre) before one needs worry about quality of internet fora discussions!
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srikant1987
- Posts: 2246
- Joined: 10 Jun 2007, 12:23
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arasi
- Posts: 16877
- Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30
Well said.
Even quality dailies and magazines publish a lot of fluff. While the initial reaction is that CM gets more attention and unlike old time performers, today's musicians get their pictures in color published as well, one wonders about the intrinsic value in some of these columns.
Though the old time CM related stuff was not always profssional (reviews, etc), they were lively. During the season, Mali of Anadavikatan did caricatures of musicians which were a class in itself! I don't think the performers took offense about being
drawn in that fashion. An old thread in the forum has some of Mali's masterpieces...
Even quality dailies and magazines publish a lot of fluff. While the initial reaction is that CM gets more attention and unlike old time performers, today's musicians get their pictures in color published as well, one wonders about the intrinsic value in some of these columns.
Though the old time CM related stuff was not always profssional (reviews, etc), they were lively. During the season, Mali of Anadavikatan did caricatures of musicians which were a class in itself! I don't think the performers took offense about being
drawn in that fashion. An old thread in the forum has some of Mali's masterpieces...
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rajumds
- Posts: 715
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 11:16
Annamalai
I had always maintained that forum decorum must be maintained and I am always against extreme views. Heated discussions are welcome as long as they don't become personal.
My response was specifically w.r.t your comment about the top 15 posters which was unwarranted in the present discussion.
I had always maintained that forum decorum must be maintained and I am always against extreme views. Heated discussions are welcome as long as they don't become personal.
My response was specifically w.r.t your comment about the top 15 posters which was unwarranted in the present discussion.
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Nick H
- Posts: 9473
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03
I don't think TMK understands anonymity and the net.
The whole role of anonymity has changed entirely with the coming of the internet.
Anonymity once meant such things as frightened whistle-blowers, poison-pen letters, perhaps cowardice, perhaps fear, perhaps evil intent.
Now it has to come to be a combination of the traditional nom-de-plume, the "handle" and, simply, a protection of a person's privacy. We live in an age where thieves watch bulletin boards to know when a person's house will be empty, and in an age where identity has become a steelable and tradable commodity.
Of course there are still those who use anonymity in the old ways. Just because we now need to protect our identities does not mean that the world is free of poison. That will be a wonderful day.
We, by vast majority, do not assume our "IDs" to malign our neighbours, we do it from a mixture of 'tradition' and safety. Many here do not even go so far as to choose a "handle", and some who do sign their posts, or at least, make their identity obvious anyway.
My identity, here and on a couple of other places on the net, is obvious to anyone who wants to scratch the surface and do a little research. If I could turn back the years I would choose a less literal net identity. It is not that I have ever actually suffered, but I am aware that I could.
So far as this forum is concerned, even if my login had been Elephant55 I would still be known, in the flesh, to a number of you. We are a small forum concerned with a small world: many of us are known to one-another.
Even if we do not know the actual identity of another member, often their nature and character is known to us, and we feel we know one another every bit as well, no, much better than, our fellow bus passenger.
The moderators have clamped down on those who assume different identities to cause trouble. Neither Moderation nor people can be 100% perfect anyway; that is just a reflection of the world.
TMK should learn a little more of this world before he criticizes it in such a way.
The whole role of anonymity has changed entirely with the coming of the internet.
Anonymity once meant such things as frightened whistle-blowers, poison-pen letters, perhaps cowardice, perhaps fear, perhaps evil intent.
Now it has to come to be a combination of the traditional nom-de-plume, the "handle" and, simply, a protection of a person's privacy. We live in an age where thieves watch bulletin boards to know when a person's house will be empty, and in an age where identity has become a steelable and tradable commodity.
Of course there are still those who use anonymity in the old ways. Just because we now need to protect our identities does not mean that the world is free of poison. That will be a wonderful day.
We, by vast majority, do not assume our "IDs" to malign our neighbours, we do it from a mixture of 'tradition' and safety. Many here do not even go so far as to choose a "handle", and some who do sign their posts, or at least, make their identity obvious anyway.
My identity, here and on a couple of other places on the net, is obvious to anyone who wants to scratch the surface and do a little research. If I could turn back the years I would choose a less literal net identity. It is not that I have ever actually suffered, but I am aware that I could.
So far as this forum is concerned, even if my login had been Elephant55 I would still be known, in the flesh, to a number of you. We are a small forum concerned with a small world: many of us are known to one-another.
Even if we do not know the actual identity of another member, often their nature and character is known to us, and we feel we know one another every bit as well, no, much better than, our fellow bus passenger.
The moderators have clamped down on those who assume different identities to cause trouble. Neither Moderation nor people can be 100% perfect anyway; that is just a reflection of the world.
TMK should learn a little more of this world before he criticizes it in such a way.
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ksugavanam
- Posts: 13
- Joined: 23 Nov 2007, 21:42
Srikant
All you need to do is to turn on the Vacation On message setting in GMail (whether or not you are actually are on vacation) to automate a reply - I have no reason to spread malicious rumours - I made my statement about automated replies after seeing verbatim same replies received soon after people known to me sent their emails.
Annamalai
I really don't know what can one infer about no replies. I suppose every artiste have a choice to reply or choose not to, whether well-known or otherwise.
A moot point - I was a B High Mrdhamgham artiste and used to be a performing on stage before I left India on overseas assignment in 1990. Since then, though I still very much enjoy playing the instrument, I have "chosen" not to perform. I am bringing this up because TMK says that a rasika cannot know as much as a performing artiste. I am of the opinion that a person can know as much; that he chose not to become a performing artiste and remain a rasika need not necessarily be a reflection lack of his abilities, knowledge and understanding. To assume so is being presumptuous.
All you need to do is to turn on the Vacation On message setting in GMail (whether or not you are actually are on vacation) to automate a reply - I have no reason to spread malicious rumours - I made my statement about automated replies after seeing verbatim same replies received soon after people known to me sent their emails.
Annamalai
I really don't know what can one infer about no replies. I suppose every artiste have a choice to reply or choose not to, whether well-known or otherwise.
A moot point - I was a B High Mrdhamgham artiste and used to be a performing on stage before I left India on overseas assignment in 1990. Since then, though I still very much enjoy playing the instrument, I have "chosen" not to perform. I am bringing this up because TMK says that a rasika cannot know as much as a performing artiste. I am of the opinion that a person can know as much; that he chose not to become a performing artiste and remain a rasika need not necessarily be a reflection lack of his abilities, knowledge and understanding. To assume so is being presumptuous.
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Ashwin
- Posts: 226
- Joined: 07 Feb 2010, 23:48
The following is just food for thought - my impressions on TMK's original article were conveyed in the previous thread.
There is a growing perception that information on the internet is authoritative and accurate (e.g., consider the wikipedia phenomenon). This is particularly dangerous when opinions are presented (and/or interpreted) as fact. Certainly the "posters" have a responsibility to be accurate in their presentation of facts and balanced in their presentation of opinions, but there is an equal responsibility on the part of the "readers" to inquire about this accuracy and this balance before forming their own impressions. However, doesnt this process of inquiry require access to the poster and disclosure of his/her fact-checking process and credentials? If so, then what is the place for anonymity of those who post concert reviews and their impressions of artists? Conversely, would it be acceptable for The Hindu to publish anonymous reviews bearing the same degree of conviction that we find in some of the reviews on rasikas.org? Again, I'm not taking any sides here, but just trying to get other rasikas' perspectives on these ideas...
Ashwin
There is a growing perception that information on the internet is authoritative and accurate (e.g., consider the wikipedia phenomenon). This is particularly dangerous when opinions are presented (and/or interpreted) as fact. Certainly the "posters" have a responsibility to be accurate in their presentation of facts and balanced in their presentation of opinions, but there is an equal responsibility on the part of the "readers" to inquire about this accuracy and this balance before forming their own impressions. However, doesnt this process of inquiry require access to the poster and disclosure of his/her fact-checking process and credentials? If so, then what is the place for anonymity of those who post concert reviews and their impressions of artists? Conversely, would it be acceptable for The Hindu to publish anonymous reviews bearing the same degree of conviction that we find in some of the reviews on rasikas.org? Again, I'm not taking any sides here, but just trying to get other rasikas' perspectives on these ideas...
Ashwin
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annamalai
- Posts: 355
- Joined: 23 Nov 2006, 07:01
nick H,
I thought you had something profound to say when you trashed TMK's article with contempt. Now, I read your rejoinder, and ....
Anonymity of Internet has been identified one of the weakness of internet and was the subject of discussion during an interview with a Stanford Professor in Jim Lehrer's Newshour. There are many research papers - google will help.
Agreed. There is a small clique of rasikas - who may know each other; that is fine. But the incendiary remarks are thrown from random sources, since they have nothing to nothing to lose.
What follows, one caustic remark is a series of conclusions based on that faulty premise leading to wild conclusions. That is the problem. Good folks like Rajumds or Vijay should exercise their judgement and clamp down on that instead of adding fuel to the fire.
I thought you had something profound to say when you trashed TMK's article with contempt. Now, I read your rejoinder, and ....
Anonymity of Internet has been identified one of the weakness of internet and was the subject of discussion during an interview with a Stanford Professor in Jim Lehrer's Newshour. There are many research papers - google will help.
Agreed. There is a small clique of rasikas - who may know each other; that is fine. But the incendiary remarks are thrown from random sources, since they have nothing to nothing to lose.
What follows, one caustic remark is a series of conclusions based on that faulty premise leading to wild conclusions. That is the problem. Good folks like Rajumds or Vijay should exercise their judgement and clamp down on that instead of adding fuel to the fire.
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annamalai
- Posts: 355
- Joined: 23 Nov 2006, 07:01
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vijay
- Posts: 2522
- Joined: 27 Feb 2006, 16:06
Done sir. You win.annamalai wrote:nick H,
What follows, one caustic remark is a series of conclusions based on that faulty premise leading to wild conclusions. That is the problem. Good folks like Rajumds or Vijay should exercise their judgement and clamp down on that instead of adding fuel to the fire.
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Nick H
- Posts: 9473
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03
Others have made the same mistake!annamalai wrote:nick H,
I thought you had something profound to say ...
I still stick by what I said: what's in a name? Those members who do not post under real names post under nicknames; they may even be better known by those nicknames!
Even if they do use a real name, in the context of an internet forum it is hardly like giving full-name, address, phone number! Try walking out on the street in Chennai and asking for Vijay or Arun! Even Nick...
(When I lived in Mylapore I was quite well known in the district, these days, I fear I am less recognised).
TMK's concert goers who happen to meet on the bus are far more anonymous than members of rasikas.org.
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cmlover
- Posts: 11498
- Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36
Theorem Prove that none of us are anonymous.
Data/Facts Forum does not permit duplicate IDs.
Proof
To be anonymous one must be using a nick name.
Nick is already using the nick name and he is not anonymous.
Hence no one in the system can use a nick name.
Hence no one in the Forum is anonymous. QED
TMK's charges dismissed!
Data/Facts Forum does not permit duplicate IDs.
Proof
To be anonymous one must be using a nick name.
Nick is already using the nick name and he is not anonymous.
Hence no one in the system can use a nick name.
Hence no one in the Forum is anonymous. QED
TMK's charges dismissed!