Why doesn't a Carnatic composition sound good in English?

girish_a · Post by **girish_a** » 21 Jan 2009, 21:53

I've been thinking why English and other western languages are not very suitable for compositions in Carnatic music.

If an English poem is sung in a Carnatic raaga, it would sound very funny, even if the poem is very beautiful. For that matter, an English composition sung in a Carnatic raaga, even in praise of Jesus, would sound no less funny.

Why don't western languages lend themselves very well to the raaga system?

One might offer refutations by citing a Shankarabharanam, or, possibly, a Hamir Kalyani, but I'm not referring to the lighter raagas here, or weighty ones that can be sung with a light touch, but to the Kambodhis, Thodis, Bhairavis and Madhyamavatis of our music.

What is the inherent characteristic of a language that makes it fit to be sung in a raaga? Conversely, what is the inherent characteristic of western languages that renders them unfit to be sung in Carnatic format?

rbharath · Post by **rbharath** » 21 Jan 2009, 22:27

I suggest u listen to the english jAvaLi, 'Oh my lovely lAlEnA'

mri_fan · Post by **mri_fan** » 21 Jan 2009, 23:51

Maybe one day we will hear a pallavi rendered in english?

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 22 Jan 2009, 00:27

It has nothing to do with the language itself and everything to do with your conditioning.

Arun

mahesh3 · Post by **mahesh3** » 22 Jan 2009, 00:53

Just my personal 2 cents...the english language can perhaps never match the "bhaavam' that is available aplenty in sanskrit, telegu etc

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 22 Jan 2009, 12:34

The bhAvam would be there if the cultural context is the same, in any language and mode of music.
That is why the taminglish we hear today sounds odd to one who hasn't been around to get used to it gradually.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 22 Jan 2009, 14:29

My two pennies is that the English language has been used to express just about anything, and can convey any depth and breadth that the author is capable of expressing.

Mahesh: it is almost certain that you know a great deal more about the Indian languages under discussion than I do, but I'd much rather hear your two paise on the subject. Why look to America?

I don't think that the English language lends itself to repetition --- but, having said that, I think of that masterpiece, the hallelujah chorus, they lyrics of which, if i remember right, are just one short biblical verse.

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 22 Jan 2009, 17:45

In fact find Sanksrit a little short on "bhavam" - it comes across too formal and scholarly for capturing raw emotion. Which is why it seems well suited for Deekshitar's aesthetics. But I did not go beyond 10th standard and it took all my "ratanth vidya" to stay afloat so perhaps my opinion does not count..

IMO, English is one of the most versatile languages and certainly has the greatest breadth in terms of literature...

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 22 Jan 2009, 18:46

mahesh3 · Post by **mahesh3** » 22 Jan 2009, 19:07

Nick, your opinion is your opinion. By that measure, you would rather have carnatic music in english.

I am talking abt it from my standpoint. In general, I do think english is quite an effective language when it comes to tlking abt the depth and breadth of anything, but there is a reason why the operas are not in english. Simple, the sentiments expressed by the word bhaavam in itself perhaps doesnt exist within the english language.

rasaali · Post by **rasaali** » 22 Jan 2009, 19:08

coolkarni wrote:I remember having heard in a lecdem that Telugu shares a rare characteristic with Italian , when it comes to a predominance of % of words ending with a Vowel.Making them extremely Musical .

cant remember when and where .But I was taken in by that argument , considering the fact that the most eloquent of pleasantries in Marathi (so very much like German) can look like fight-to-death arguments.

Kji, dont know where you heard it but I have heard Prof TRS make this point about Telugu (without reference to Italian) more than once. Once it was when he was speculating why possibly Ponnaiah Pillai, a Tamilian and disciple of Dikshitar chose to compose in Telugu rather than his mother tongue or the language chosen by his guru.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 22 Jan 2009, 19:25

That was perhaps because telugu was the 'in' language in music at that time--just as french was fashionable. in court and society. At least, the bulk of songs were composed in telugu then which has the cadence and vowel sounds which is pleasing to the ears.

Yes, Vijay. But for a few songs in sanskrit, they speak of majesty to me and are awe inspiring. Not as emotive as songs in tamizh, telugu, kannaDa, malayALam or hindi (urdu).

Operettas in english have their own charm, but when it comes to italian and french, they are more lyrical than english and german and seem to suit operas--at least for me.

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 22 Jan 2009, 22:01

English is very full of dipthongs and half-open-half-closed vowels. South Indian languages consist predominantly of a's i's u's e's and o's. Sanskrit contains an occassional ai and an au. This I think makes all the difference.

Most English vowels cannot be arbitrarily elongated.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 23 Jan 2009, 00:49

mahesh3 wrote:Nick, your opinion is your opinion. By that measure, you would rather have carnatic music in english.

Oh, certainly not! I am quite content with carnatic music the way it is! In fact, didn't I imply that it would not be such a good language? I think I was non-committal in the end.

I am talking abt it from my standpoint. In general, I do think english is quite an effective language when it comes to talking abt the depth and breadth of anything,

but there is a reason why the operas are not in english. Simple, the sentiments expressed by the word bhaavam in itself perhaps doesnt exist within the english language.

There is a much better reason: probably the ones you are thinking of were composed and written by Germans, Italians, etc! That is an extra-ordinarily good reason for them not being in English! There are, I think, original operatic works written in English, and there are translations of the non-English, which are performed and respected.

I doubt that there is any emotion, feeling, sentiment, devotion, perception etc etc that has not been expressed in English literature, poetry and musical composition. It may be my mother tongue, but there are greater scholars than I here; I think Coolji has a knowledge of English literature that approaches his knowledge of music!

Most English vowels cannot be arbitrarily elongated.

Really? I just read the rest of your post out loud to my self, elongating every vowel! There are accents and dialects in the world that could not exist if our vowels could not be elongated: ask an Australian!

the most eloquent of pleasantries in Marathi (so very much like German) can look like fight-to-death arguments.

The most eloquent of pleasantries in my Maruti can seem like that too!

Long, long ago, I had an Italian girlfriend in London. She had little or no accent to betray her origin of a couple of decades ago, but I once met her mother, who spoke little or no English. The two of them shouted at each other in Italian for half an hour and then we left. Afterwards my lady-friend said, rightly, that it probably sounded as if they were having a row, but actually they'd been getting on really well that day! I hate to think what a real row in Italian sounds like!

I think a certain performer did once record some carnatic compositions in English. Would you believe I have forgotten her name? Probably because I am still suffering the bruises from the last time I mentioned it!

kjrao · Post by **kjrao** » 23 Jan 2009, 05:27

Same language spoken in different regions/states/countries sound differently. Some accents sound sophisticated while others rustic. In Mimicry the artists use it to bring out laughter. Whether some thing sounds funny or not depends on what we think is the right way to pronounce, I think.

Is there a translated novel which is better than the original ? - If not, what is it due to ? Is it just a question of mastery of a language ? Languages always borrow words from other languages when they don't have an equivalent word. Even a word like 'love' may have so many different words in a language to distinguish it further !

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 23 Jan 2009, 05:47

Don't we have "Harry, Harry Potter" in Vasantha, attributed to Sri Muthuswami Deekshithar?

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 23 Jan 2009, 06:32

harimau wrote:Don't we have "Harry, Harry Potter" in Vasantha, attributed to Sri Muthuswami Deekshithar?

The same one that goes 'sundara ginny kAntam, dusTa mAyA voldermortAntakam'?

arvindt · Post by **arvindt** » 23 Jan 2009, 06:58

In fact find Sanksrit a little short on "bhavam" - it comes across too formal and scholarly for capturing raw emotion.

I kind of disagree with this. I feel this is an artifact of the fact that most CM Sanskrit
compositions are those of Dikshitar, Swati Tirunal and others influenced by their styles,
and the styles of these composers were relatively impersonal and scholarly.

But on the other hand listen to a piece like "Vadasi Yadi", the Jayadeva Ashtapadi set to
Mukhari -- it's in Sanskrit, and IMHO, there are very few other pieces that convey such
raw emotion (in this case shringara) through a combination of lyric and superb music.

Also while Dikshitar's style is said to be impersonal and scholarly, when I listen to a
piece like HastivadanAya in Navaroj by Brindamma or JambUpathE in Yamuna Kalyani
by DKJ , it never fails to move me -- I feel considerable raw emotion and can almost
feel Dikshitar's love/bhakti for the diety in question. Obviously this is a subjective and
personal opinion...

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 23 Jan 2009, 07:29

Just my personal 2 cents...the english language can perhaps never match the "bhaavam' that is available aplenty in sanskrit, telegu etc

This is actually very offensive!

mahesh3 · Post by **mahesh3** » 23 Jan 2009, 07:44

why so, srikant? The topic intself asks y the enlish language is not suitable, and i just gave my opinion.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 23 Jan 2009, 08:51

All this makes me wonder--why are we all discussing, disputing things here in ENGLISH? Just because it is handy? For its being the most communicative tool in a place where we speak many languages and listen to songs without understanding the meaning of them all? Let's admit it. English IS musical, flexible, gets the point across because of its immense availability of words. By the way, that certainly is one major factor which binds us all, like our love for music...

ksrimech · Post by **ksrimech** » 23 Jan 2009, 09:25

Didn't somebody compose an english peice in tODi on King George when he visited India in the 1910s/20s? Pardon me if I'm wrong (as usual) or pointing to some "narastuti"

composition.

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 23 Jan 2009, 11:29

Arvind - my opinion was indeed coloured by Deekshitar/Swathi's krithis...I have no substantial knowledge of Sankrit literature, not even by way of translations.

On Deekshitar's kritis while they certainly have the power to move, they do so because of their sheer grandeur wheras say a Thyagaraja or Syama Shastri appeal directly to the heart. Just finished listening to a brilliant Vijay Siva rendition of Jampupathe with a mind-blowing Neraval so I can relate to what you are saying.

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 23 Jan 2009, 12:26

Who said CM doesn't sound good in English?
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=fmdAF4ihedM

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 23 Jan 2009, 12:27

Srikant, Mahesh, perhaps I might be a little riled at imputations of lack in my language, but I don't find it offensive. The first tendency is to put it down to lack of familiarity with the language, but, of course I do not know Mahesh's background and qualifications.

What if I was to suggest Chinese as a language for carnatic music? I have no knowledge whatsoever of any of the Chinese dialects --- but to my ear, I would say that the rhythms and sounds would be quite unsuitable. That is not, in any way, to suggest that great depth and feeling cannot be be expressed; there is obviously no doubt that it can.

As you are probably tired of hearing, I am an ashamed monoglot --- but, in the absence of being able to understand other languages, I came to the conclusion once that listening to them is akin to listening to music, and a person does not like every sort of music. I am, in that respect, at odds with many of my fellow countrymen, and even fellow Europeans, who consider French to be the most romantic language: I find it irritating! On the other hand, I find that German has an intrinsic poetry to its sound. For romance, I would probably chose Italian ---Oh! I have chosen the Roman language for romance; got something right!

Let me stress that I am not talking of the countries, or the peoples of those countries, but of the experience of listening to language as sound. There is no doubt that the Mynah is more articulate and sweet-sounding than the crow, but I would hate to have no crows nearby. Kaaa-natic music!

Which makes me wonder: the peacock and the cuckoo certainly have their songs. Does the crow? If not, then I must submit it to Arasi for her "To Do" list

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 23 Jan 2009, 12:45

Ragam-talam, thanks for reminding us of that clip! I would tend to agree with Arun that much lies in our conditioning rather than the language itself. Though even with conditioning I'm not sure I could accept Chinese CM compositions (part of the problem is the very specific intonations associated with their dialects, I'd presume-- was trying to sing Mandarin numbers and random words I know in Neelambari and it just wouldn't work)!

Nick, gotta disagree with you on German. Find it really a rather violent tongue! My French classmates and I have always considered French to be more a language perfect for snideness than anything else though... So that about leaves Italian!

Ponbhairavi · Post by **Ponbhairavi** » 23 Jan 2009, 15:46

When we hear music in tape in our house we do not get the same fulness of satisfaction as attending a live concert.Why?. because in a "live "concert there are hundreds of micro components which add to give an overall effect of enjoyment( the hall, the ambience, the stage ,the light, the jamakkalam ,the dress, the settings behind and around, the aroma of sambar from the canteen etc... Even if one item is glaringly different the effect is spoiled just like a single note of abhaswaram in an alapana.
Imagine Sudha Raghunathan dressed like a black american Pop singer in a black jewel studded robe with corresponding hair do and make up (lips) sitting( sorry how possible) standing under glaring sparkling colour flash lights surrounded by the ususal accompaniments sittting on the stage and singing "Rama nee Samanmevaru" in chaste classical idiom. Horror.
the converse is also true. imagine a famous rock singer attired in Pothy's pattu and sitting"pudavai thalaippai izhuthu pothikittu" and shouting a pop song.. disastrous!!.
John B Higgins wore "traditional "dress when singing carnatic music.
THe success of Cleveland Aradhana is in no small measure due to the reproduction of Tamil nadu cultural ambience : even in subzero weather THyagaraswamy is left bare bodied. Some of the younger participants who have never visited india and who are always seen in shorts wear dothies for the music (not fancy dress) competition.
One of such micro components( A major one at that) is the language
This applies to any sentimental subjective experience. as for example a temple ritual, a marriage ceremony, a funeral or an assembly session. Obama cannot take oath in sanskrit wearing a Panchakacham in a backdrop setting of Taj Mahal.
As the French poet Baudelaire says" the perfumes the colours and the SOUNDS correspond to each other.
rajagopalan

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 23 Jan 2009, 18:14

bilahari wrote:Nick, gotta disagree with you on German. Find it really a rather violent tongue! My French classmates and I have always considered French to be more a language perfect for snideness than anything else though... So that about leaves Italian!

It's wonderful that our tastes are so individual!

mahesh3 · Post by **mahesh3** » 23 Jan 2009, 18:39

so, the issue has moved from suitability of english for carnatic music to adequacy of english as a language?

I think the 2 are quite different questions....I did not say it is impossible to compose a carnatic song in english, in fact, given sufficient time,
we could even condition our minds to accept it....but whether it is suitable? I feel that there is a lot of bhaavam in carnatic music be it in sanskrit, telugu or kannada that cannot come across in english...there is a lot that is lost in translation. Arguments like "dont we communicate in english on this forum" are just glib...

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 23 Jan 2009, 19:15

mahesh3 wrote:there is a lot that is lost in translation.

Translation isn't what's meant, I suppose. Even a new composition in English wouldn't sound that "Carnatic"

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 23 Jan 2009, 21:29

for kicks i saw singing/humming an anglicized adaptation of the pallavi of a krithi (all sangatis

)

(guess the original - It is an adaptation and so translation is not exact. Raga starts with a b)

Come and Protect me .....
Come and Protect me - Je.su..s!
Your the protector of the u....ni...ve....rse

Seemed and sounded funny of course - but there were enough vowels in enough places to stretch it to the tune. I could not do the same for anupallavi and charanam etc. as context was too hindu mythology

A few more cents regarding our conditioning:
I think we are forgetting that our condition to associate anything carnatic with our languages, and the hindu context is so strong, so ingrained - it is almost impossible for us to break that association to separate our conditioning influences biases, from anything intrinsically different between the languages.

Bhavam - it is there in pure sound (as in abstract music), and it is there in the meaning conveyed by the words - the words themselves have nothing in them unless they have associated meaning, and/or adorned by music. The phonetical combinations in the word SaraNagati (transliteration correct?) - has no inherent bhavam - everything comes when you know what this word means in the language to which it belongs. Now, our conditioning, being so subconsciously strong, makes us form a very tight-coupling association between the word and the bhavam of the meaning of the word - that we think the bhavam is there in the phonetic combination of the word itself i.e. we believe that there is some magic in the phonetical combination of the word SaraNagati which adds bhavam.

But the same conditioning would be possible for a word in another language that conveys similar meaning (if not exact). The bhavam in plea, sorrow, joy, content, anger - they are there in every language - because they are human feelings which all humans can and do express.

Arun

PUNARVASU · Post by **PUNARVASU** » 23 Jan 2009, 22:36

arunk, Is it 'brOva bArama- bahudAri'?

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 23 Jan 2009, 22:56

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 23 Jan 2009, 22:59

Translating the religion as well as the language is, in my view, unnecessary. If you had kept to the original deity, would that have made it possible to continue?

(And I think I'd say that even if I wasn't fed up with the stereotypical reaction that I must be American and Christian, of which I am neither

)

When I was a kid we used to play a psycho-something (CMLover: what would the word be?) game: take a simple, every-day word, and repeat it continually many times. The result is that it looses all meaning. It causes a curious mental feeling!

(Actually, looking back, I wonder at the fact that the brain resets its association with that word, and quite quickly).

I've heard of much stranger language association/disassociation thing --- that some South American Sharmans, on the way to the place where they perform their ritual, go through numerous preparations, one of which is communally re-defining their language. They use the same words, but change their meaning. Thus horses might be called shoes, one might wear fire on one's feet, hair might be called bird --- and so on. It must be harder for the brain to cope with that than with learning (or inventing) an entirely new language.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 23 Jan 2009, 23:06

nick - yes strictly there was no need to change religion - but I was "theorizing" IF the musical part (i.e. cm like melody based genre) developed in a western context. I was also removing more possibilities of extra sub-conscious associations.

Arun

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 23 Jan 2009, 23:09

Nick,
Subramanya Barati has done it all. His verses: kAkkai SiRaginilE nanda lAlA undan kariya niRam tOnRudaiyyE nanda lAlA (krishNA! I see your hue in the feather of a crow) is popular among musicians. He also sings: kAkkai kuruvi engaL jAdi, andak kaDalum malaiyum engaL kUTTam (the crow and sparrow are my brethren, the sea and the mountains are my clan). You think I can top that?!!

Hopefully, we can sing a ditty in the jam session next season set to a rAgam with your doing your 'cawing' as refrain

venkatpv · Post by **venkatpv** » 24 Jan 2009, 00:13

a friend of mine sang a sanskrit slokam this morning, and then sang its english meaning in the same ragam. turns out she hadn't read this thread... but she disagrees with the thread. after listening to her, i have to disagree too!! atleast for viruttam singing.

mahesh3 · Post by **mahesh3** » 24 Jan 2009, 09:01

when i said there is a lot that is lost in translation, i meant the bhaavam of the composition, not the words in itself. As for me reading Doris Lessing in tamil, not sure if I am so conciously concerned about serious "real-world" affairs such as forced evolution, feminism etc etc to bother reading her even in english. Let me get through poverty first, and do my wee bit. On another note, its quite incredible that we have the kind of intellectuals who can casually reference Doris Lessing even for a piddly discussion on the use of language in music.

Meanwhile.. Arun, you do continue to talk abt the adequacy of english for carnatic music, whereas the question is why is the english language unsuitable for carnatic music. The two are somehow different in my mind, tho I am still thinking of a way to communicate it.

Yea...We could definitely sing christmas carols or even twinkle twinkle little star in carnatic. I am quite positive Mozart would turn in his grave, but who cares, huh even if the spirit of his composition is lost....if we were to somehow attribute a structure and a psyche to everything and everyone

!

Guess what I am trying to say is that carnatic music can perhaps be just as unsuitable for a rhyme, but maybe not inadequate. Thats two more of my cents, oops paise...as Nick would suggest.

Waiting for the Lord Muruga, London Muruga video to prove me wrong

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 24 Jan 2009, 09:37

Arasi... that is beautiful, and it turns out that my wife, the real bird lover of the family, did know the song. Thank you.

mcescher1, I don't know that any kind of translation sucks --- without it I would not have been able to read a number of wonderful books from places as far apart as South America, Russia, and, of course, India. It depends upon the skill of the translator, a huge task, to have a depth of knowledge not only of both languages, but of the mind of author. Obviously I cannot vouch for their veracity, but Arasi gives two beautiful lines in English just now.

Mahesh, I can bring you London Muraga prasadam when I next go, just in case it helps to illuminate this issue.

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 24 Jan 2009, 16:42

One of the key ingredients of a CM kriti is the swarAkshara element in it. On this basis at least, English seems to fall way below the requirement for it to be considered a candidate language for CM.

I can't think of any suitable word in English that you can form using the swaras - can you?

Contrast that with e.g. 'sAma gAna lOla' etc.

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 24 Jan 2009, 18:53

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 24 Jan 2009, 19:29

ragam-talam wrote:I can't think of any suitable word in English that you can form using the swaras - can you?

Ma and Pa spring to mind!

Apart from that, Naaa

...Not exactly MaNa from heaven, I concede <Blush>.

I'm sure there must be some better wordsmiths among us that could find some. Cool?

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 24 Jan 2009, 20:06

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 24 Jan 2009, 22:19

rAgam: mOhanam

No way JosE (hOsE as in spanish)
there's no other way!

Far away, to Halloway,
Don't dismay,fly away!

In a day, free as a jay,
drive away to Dundee
on the motor way,
'ave a good day!

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 25 Jan 2009, 13:16

coolkarni wrote:Like Abhimanyu , you have to skirmish your way back.

I used to win the occasional chess game by having no tactics at all --- it can baffle the unexpecting opponent!

So, when I find the enemy circling around me...

(as long as they do not turn out to be bus drivers!)

gobilalitha · Post by **gobilalitha** » 26 Jan 2009, 09:10

Thank God, nobody suggested a carnatic music song in Chinese!!! will somebody try to write such a song in chinese characters? gobilalitha

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 26 Jan 2009, 10:40

Nick,
Did you try singing the above mOhanam piece? Who said english language has no musical flow?

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 26 Jan 2009, 15:03

It'd be quite something if I was able to do that, Arasi!

But of course English has musical flow --- there is plenty of music with English lyrics!

Even Chinese --- but that would bring us back to the essential question; how about translating an English song into Chinese: would the flow of the language match the flow of the music? I have my doubts.

English --- you can make it flow any way you want.

But please no songs in SMS/text/chat language! That is not fit for anything, not even internet forums

gn.sn42 · Post by **gn.sn42** » 26 Jan 2009, 21:52

nick H wrote: how about translating an English song into Chinese: would the flow of the language match the flow of the music? I have my doubts.

Here you go:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3EC9vgUONE

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 27 Jan 2009, 00:22

Well... I didn't think before speaking (as ever!) --- and I expect there are lots of Chinese versions of English pop songs, and this particular one didn't sound too bad.

"If there's anything that you want,
If there's anything I can do..."

...fairly clipped in the original English

"Then drop me a line and I'll send it along"

...probably more roll to it in the original, and then again the clipped

"With love... from me... to you"

Amazing, come to think of it, the textural variety in the lines: clever, those Beatles!

Thanks!