peevish about language

[uday_shankar]

While it is good to maintain Carnatic tradition, I think as far as language is concerned, English or any other, it is good to move with the times. The British and Americans are always moving on, while we Indians sometimes get stuck in a time warp.

Here are my pet peeves about Carnatic reviewers' lingo:

1. Rendition - "His rendition of Dikshitar's akshaya linga vibho was ooh, aah", etc..

Ever since George Bush so-called "war on terror" and secret interrogations, several legal connotations of rendition have gained prominence. The most well-known of those is that it is a proxy for torture. So every time I hear about the rendition of a certain raga, I can only imagine how the vocalist must have tortured the raga as well as the listeners .

2. "acquitted himself well" - Typically the mridangam player

The katcheri is not a trial and nobody needs to acquit himself well or otherwise. This kind of language is clearly some 1920's detritus.

Forum members with a tendency towards old fashioned language could observe and learn from articulate youngsters who speak the modern language, like vijay, or perhaps the evergreen Coolkarni .

[rshankar]

And here I was, admiring Vijay for his near Wodehousian command over the language!!

[prashant]

Forum members with a tendency towards old fashioned language could observe and learn from articulate youngsters who speak the modern language, like vijay, or perhaps the evergreen Coolkarni .

Or they could care less about perceived linguistic antiquity...?

[mohan]

1. Rendition - "His rendition of Dikshitar's akshaya linga vibho was ooh, aah", etc..

I don't have a problem with the word rendition. A dictionary definition of rendition is the following:

1. The act of rendering.
2. An interpretation of a musical score or a dramatic piece.
3. A performance of a musical or dramatic work.
4. A translation, often interpretive.
5. A surrender.

Thus in the Carnatic music context, part 2 or 3 can apply.

[arasi]

Uday,
Message understood. I am speaking on behalf of old geezers (and 'geezeresses'). In this 'global village', I bet every Chelsea finds her mom stale in her expressions and others think she herself is not 'with it'. Just as technology makes every new thing 'passe' by the hour, new expressions crop up and make an exit in a flash too.
Another side to it is our own personal prejudices against certain words, names and so on. Think of a lovely name for a baby and see it vetoed in a flash. "Don't you like the name?". "I used to, but I had this abnoxious classmate called..."
I have problems (impatience?) with certain words folks use which perhaps they don't consider as swear words because in their part of the world they are 'not' swear words! b*****, c*** are examples.
After you focused on the word 'rendition', it sounds a bit 'blah' to me as well, I have to admit.
However, Mohan has a valid point.
Someone has to come up with a program which can automatically replace the blah word with a 'hip' word (what is hip for hip now?). I am kidding, of course

[bilahari]

Uday, come on, don't let George Bush impact your choice of vocabulary!

[gn.sn42]

While it is good to maintain Carnatic tradition, I think as far as language is concerned, English or any other, it is good to move with the times.

Why the one and not the other?

Here are my pet peeves about Carnatic reviewers' lingo:

...

This kind of language is clearly some 1920's detritus.

I can't resist:

Here's the first usage of "pet peeve" in the OED:

1917 Fort Wayne (Indiana) Daily News July 8/6 (advt.) Ask seven women out of ten what their little pet peeve is, and they will tell you that it is having a brand new pair of silk stockings ‘drop a stitch’.

[Update:] Wow, you got arasi to use ****s!

[bilahari]

Words/Expressions my English teacher always warned us against using in formal writing:
1. Sad
2. Happy
3. Depressed (and other general and overused adjectives; adjectives in general as well)
4. Needless to say (then why say it?)
5. Ergo
6. In conclusion
7. One (third person narration)
8. Aspect (this I don't understand; she thought it was a pseudoprofound alternative to "part")

[coolkarni]

.

[Nick H]

In the spirit of Bilahari's post 8...

Unaccustomed as I am to public speaking, I, myself, personally, would like to say...

9. nice --- the most used, misused, and banned-by-English-teachers word in the English Language.

Lastly (should not have an -ly), I would like to add (would you? why don't you, then?) that. in my opinion, (this is an internet one; if not mine, then whose opinion would it be? And yet, one used to get 'flamed' on rmic for not putting IMHOs all over)...

There is a language specific to concerts, different even to Indian English. "Had his initial training from" is a good example of over-egging the cake (or gilding the lilly, and so on), and I am sure there are many, many more that I have just ceased to notice as they blend into the landscape.

Whilst I could pontificate (groans of "Oh, please don't" ) that a lot of this has something to do with a certain sense of self-importance on the part of those who believe in making the most of their microphone time, instead, I'll close, and please bear with me while I make this last point, it won't take long, I know you are all looking forward to listening to some music so I'll be brief, by saying...

I'm just glad when announcements are made in English, any kind of English, and I can understand them



Cool: I'm sure your quantum jump would have been marginal! Another greatly misused word.

One of the few things my economics teacher succeeded in teaching me, "margin means difference; it can be a difference of any size, it does not mean small!". Similarly, my father taught me that one cannot make a loss --- one suffers a loss.

[uday_shankar]

9. nice --- the most used, misused, and banned-by-English-teachers word in the English Language.

Nice. :p

[arasi]

We groan when a speaker starts by saying: I will say a few words (really?) while Poor Nick thinks it is great (nice?) that the speech is in English. I feel it'sall one's own--sorry, Bilahari--a person's own (!) response to a word or expression, based on his own personality and background.

[srikant1987]

What could be a substitute for rendition? Singing or playing? Well, the point is to bring singing and playing on the same footing, we can use this word, which is usable for both.

[Ashwin]

9. nice --- the most used, misused, and banned-by-English-teachers word in the English Language.

Nice. :p

Nick, your post took me back 25 years to first grade, where I recall our teacher giving the word "nice" a formal burial - gravestone, grass, and all. I wish we could do this for certain staple words in a Carnatic musician's biography: mellifluous, nuances, etc...

Ashwin

[uday_shankar]

Ashwin
Good ones. I too dislike "mellifluous" and "nuanced" performances. And how about "scintillating" ones ? Couldn't care less. How about "enthralling" the audience. Go ahead, knock yourself out.

[bilahari]

"Like" is another one that I hate. Especially in the American usage meaning "said": "I was like 'this concert was uber cool' and then he was like 'dude, this concert sucked' " and on and on (with "teenage" rising intonation).

See if, like, you can, like, guess the most common English words:
http://www.sporcle.com/games/common_english_words.php

[rshankar]

Since we are discussing pet peeves about mis-using the English language without becoming peevish (at least, I hope we are not) let me air out my personal ones - archaic words and phrases are not what annoy me (render, acquit, nuanced, and millifluous notwithstanding) - I get fretful when the syntax and grammar of one language are imposed on another or when literal translations are used - reading these constructs are a torture (and I always imagine the language being choked to death when this happens)!

Examples - 'putting tALam' - I'd much rather 'keeping time' or even 'keeping the tAlam'

Another is non musical - 'putting the phone down' versus 'keeping the phone'!

And the egregiously pompous 'even I'...

Another peeve is converting a noun into a verb by adding 'ing'/'ed' to it.

Example: nerevaling, or nereveled - I'd much rather see 'performed the nereval' or the 'the nereval was at...'

Bilahari - The only appropriate response to your peev (post 16) that I can think of comes from Prof Higgins (I am afraid I am crossing the limits of Uday's boundaries for the present and venturing into the 'archaic' here) - 'while in America they haven't used it for years' - it was true then, and even more now-a-days.

[venkatpv]

Another peeve is converting a noun into a verb by adding 'ing'/'ed' to it.

Example: nerevaling, or nereveled - I'd much rather see 'performed the nereval' or the 'the nereval was at...'

Even I find this unsahikkable.

[vasanthakokilam]

^^^

I have to forget the contents of this thread, otherwise I will be rendered useless in the writing department.

[Ashwin]

How about wholly invented words, like "botheration" and "byheart" -- as in, "If you don't byheart it, it will become a botheration."

Ashwin

Edit: much to my dismay, the OED lists "botheration" as a word, albeit colloquial I guess I never got around to byhearting the whole OED. I still vote to banish it.

[sridhar_ranga]

Deleted

[Nick H]

rendering, if music must be rendered, rather than performed, is better than redition* --- IMHO, of course!

Botheration is a lovely old-fashioned-English polite swearword, or, simply means a nuisance.

I was like... he was... then I was like.... --- teenager talk, Dudes

Oh, and back to the concert platform... he performed sincerely... What is that supposed to mean? Didn't tell any lies?



*The previous management in USA have associated this word with torture and abuse of human rights. As language forms tend to bounce to and fro, maybe this one will return to us in a few years, and artists will be horrified to read a critic's report that the audience suffered their extraordinary rendition of a number of songs !

[bilahari]

Nick, the "like" abuse is hardly restricted to teenagers! I've never heard of botheration before!
One of my friends is very particular about using the phrase "someone else" or "x-one else" in possessive form. He insists the grammatically correct usage is: "this is not MD's composition--it is someone's else!"

[vasanthakokilam]

>it is someone's else!"

I am guilty of every other pet-peeve aired here but not this one I have not heard anyone's else usage of this.

[bilahari]

Whether or not it is grammatically correct, I wouldn't ever use phrases like "someone's else"!

Regarding public speaking, things (another word to avoid!) that irritate me:
1. Uhms and Ahs. If you're contemplating what to say next, just keep quiet.
2. Well and So in starting almost every sentence.
3. Thank you at the end of the speech. What is there to thank people for? It's not like they had a choice putting up with your speech, and this is especially true with never ending florid felicitation speeches by concert organizers.
4. Mispronouncing artistes' names during the introduction speeches. The very basic expectation of the introduction is that the artistes' names be pronounced correctly! If you can't even bother to get that right, what are you doing on stage with a microphone?
5. Mentioning the umpteen awards artistes have gotten. "X has received the Sangeeta Sagara Chudamani Kalasarathy award from the Pitamaha Junior Sangeetha Munnetra Kazhagam." Yes, we're certainly impressed now.
6. Praising the artistes' music in the introduction: "Sri ABCD's music is characterised by spectral fidelity, tonal precision, pitch perfection, silken bowing, rhythmic excellence, ability to weave moving pictures of ragas, blah blah blah." Can't we just appreciate these astounding qualities by demonstration in the concert?
7. Mundane, general praise of the artistes during the felicitation after the thani/ concert: "EFGH presented a really astounding concert this evening, and his rendition of bA bA black sheep in yadukulakAmbOji was so excellent and moving and then his shakalaka baby in chenchukAmbOji was so exciting and fast and ... (of course) this is one of the best concerts we've ever had in this sabha etc etc." I'm sure the artistes really value such praise.
8. Accent. Are you American or Indian? Make up your mind. Nothing sounds more peculiar than a heavy Indian accent interrupted with strong rolling Rs.
9. Requesting applause multiple times for the artistes: (1) "First, let's give all the artistes a round of applause... I'm sure you'll agree that this was an excellent, great, wonderful, superb concert." (2) Let's give X another round of applause for that superb performance. (3) Let's applaud the violinist for his superb performance. (4) Let's applaud the percussionists for that great thani. (5) Let's applaud them all individually while they receive their ponnADais/ souvenirs. (6) Finally, let's give all the artistes another round of applause for their excellent concert."

Things that annoy me in concert reviews (and I am guilty of all of these sins, mind you):
1. Talking extensively about the vocalist and right at the end, an obligatory "X and Y provided able accompaniment on the violin and mrudangam." Really, that's all they did?
2. NEGLECTING altogether to mention the names of the accompanists.
3. Phrases like (I'm especially guilty of these, but I don't know how to get over this hump): "chintAmaNi ragam shone in all its glory", "PQR built the raga edifice...", "her voice was in fine fettle" and so many other cliches that most of us have somehow come to adopt while reviewing concerts.

[vasanthakokilam]

>4. Mispronouncing artistes' names during the introduction speeches. The very basic expectation of the introduction is that the artistes' names be pronounced correctly! If you can't even bother to get >that right, what are you doing on stage with a microphone?

Yes, this is quite bad. In one recent concert, the announcer did not have a clue about artists' names and said something like ' We would like to thank the main artist of the evening..hmm.. " then started looking at the sheet of paper he had. The artist herself quickly offered her name in a pleasant way.

[arasi]

Bilahari,
I am also peevish when it comes to all the things you mention. Who knows? Once we get that microphone in hand, you and I might hog it the way they do!
The worst bit is not saying even the main performer's name correctly. They could atleast glance at the brochure and say all the names correctly. Practising yOgA during concert speech time is a good thing. Chatting or getting up and going out for a spell is a good thing. Doing anything but listening to it is a good thing.
We rasikAs complain about lack of manners among a few artistes. When I see them sit through speech after speech in concert after concert, I do admire them for putting up with the agony in utter politeness.

A suggestion to organizers: before asking someone to speak, ask them to memorize the names of the artistes. Tell them that when the stop-watch goes after two minutes, they cede the microphone.

A suggestion to rasikAs: tell the organizers that if it is a speechless concert, you would pay extra. If a speech is long, warn them that if speeches are planned for the next concert, you would pay less than the ticket price...

[bilahari]

VK, that is as low as it can get. I think that the whole introduction, including the artistes' names, should be byhearted (!) prior to going on stage because (1) people won't be willing to memorise 10 min worth of information and would be forced to deliver a short introduction, (2) it would also force them to even look at the information prior to the concert, rather than flipping through pages and pages of notes and website printouts searching for the highlighted phrases while on stage, and (3) as with any good speech, the introducing person can actually maintain eye contact with the audience and artistes during the speech instead of sinking his/her head into the sheafs of papers and muddling him/herself up trying to pronounce "Manambuchavedi" correctly.

[srikant1987]

@ Ravi
In most other forms of music, time is kept without any special gestures. In Carnatic music, we have gestures for tALam, that's why we need to take in a word that implies these gestures. Hence we use a native expression which tells everything, translated literally.

[srikant1987]

I think the best way to be absolutely sure and comfortable with the names of the artists is to talk to them for a while before the concert.

[uday_shankar]

>4. Mispronouncing artistes' names during the introduction speeches.

I remember an interesting incident:

When the Music Academy was honoring Smt. Kalpagam Swaminathan for something, the late TT Vasu's speech writer must have typed her name as Kalpakam, stemming from a common transliteration confusion among Tamil speaking people. That was it ! Throughout the course of his laudatory speech, Mr. Vasu couldn't get past calling her "Kalpaakkam" Swaminathan again and again. Mr Vasu didn't seem perturbed that the "Music" Academy rather than the Indian Academy of Sciencies was honoring somebody who, judging by his name, might have been an expert on fast breeder reactors or some such thing rather than rare Dikshithar kritis. The audience reaction was predictable - the initial shock wave of laughter turned into a mushroom cloud that had ripples of snickering throughout the speech.

[rshankar]

@ Ravi
Hence we use a native expression which tells everything, translated literally.

That is where I disagree - if we use English, we need to figure out an appropriate expression, or else, for me, the beauty of the language is lost.

[vasanthakokilam]

"putting the thalam" does not bother me much though I agree it is an odd expression, but in general the beauty of English is in its flexibility to take some of such usages and incorporate as its own over time. Of course not all make it and probably this one woud not make it. That aside, this expression itself is a curious one. I assume this came to be used as a direct translation of 'thALam pODu', right? Why is 'put' a direct translation of 'pODu'. The direct words are 'Drop', 'Beat' etc. Had it been 'thALam vai' then I can see 'put' coming into picture...What am I missing? I am now confused

[Nick H]

I'm happy with 'putting thalam', (except of course when it is noisy!). I guess I just learnt that phrase in mrdangam class and it stuck.

In English, I think we would say beating time, but I' not sure.

[Sreeni Rajarao]

How about wholly invented words, like "botheration" and "byheart" -- as in, "If you don't byheart it, it will become a botheration."

Ashwin

Edit: much to my dismay, the OED lists "botheration" as a word, albeit colloquial I guess I never got around to byhearting the whole OED. I still vote to banish it.

Ashwin,
if you were childhood years were in India, your teacher would have told you to "byheart" the lessons by the next class!

That is Indian "Inglish" and we have to accept it!

[srkris]

Its about literally translating the vernacular terms to English, in this case - tALam pOdu becomes "put tALam".

Another feature of Indian English in general is the use of retroflexes wherever they fit. 'But' should be pronounced like buth but its pronounced in Indian english like butt. India should be pronounced like Indhia, but it is pronounced as inDia.

[vasanthakokilam]

>'But' should be pronounced like buth but its pronounced in Indian english like butt

Really? That is news to me.

Listen to these two from Merriam Webster:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/ ... 01.wav=but
http://www.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/ ... 1.wav=butt

I do not hear the 'h' sound in either one. May be you mean it is not a hard stop 't' but there is a little bit of voicing at the end. That is true.

[srkris]

Not voicing, voicing is conversion of ka to ga, pa to ba, cha to ja etc. Aspiration is the difference between ka and kha etc.

English being a germanic language has only dental consonants (ta tha da dha na), no retroflex (Ta, Tha, Da, Dha, Na). Indian English however substitutes dentals with retroflexes willy nilly.

[vasanthakokilam]

OK. I still do not get where the 'h' sound is in the proper way of saying 'but'. Were you able to listen to the above two meriam webster links?

[uday_shankar]

vk,
think of the h as a sort of hissing follow through after you say the word but without any trace of an Indian retroflex. I think that's what srkris means.

srkris
Thanks for the insights into how sounds are made. I think I understand what dental and retroflex mean.

There's also the Indian substitutions for simple dentals with aspirated such as berth (Indian railways prints the word in Hindi with the aspirated second tha).

[srkris]

What I meant was but should be pronounced as बत and not as बट

Both the MW links sound the same.

[vasanthakokilam]

Srkris: I made a typo in the second link which I had fixed now. Listen to them again.

I am now confused about your stipulation of the proper way of saying 'but'. Do you agree that the MW way of saying it is the right way?

[rshankar]

Really, Chembai - I think but and put have the letter 't' pronounced as 'T' (in the transliteration scheme).

[arasi]

Tamizh is amazing in its complexity--let alone in the multiple meanings of words. The bold way in which we even turn the meaning of an English word in using it for our own purposes! 'To be bored' becomes 'bOR aDikkiRadu'. We do not say 'tALam aDikkiRadu'! 'pODu' also serves to say: sAppADu pODu'--serve me food.
The 'by heart' business started off as 'to learn by heart' in our days.
The word 'tension' attained star quality. 'tension Agi viTTadu" meaning 'it became a state of tension', not 'I was tense'. Then you have 'fying' everything: pOTTufy tALam besides 'put tALam' and on and on it goes. Just as the very rich can spend their money with whatever whim they have, language-rich tamizh-speaking folks indulge in these expressions. No problem when it is teenage talk. Slang is every language's cousin, and can be fun. My worry is that the true riches in vocabulary and expressions are almost forgotten. Each region in tamizh nADu, karnAtakA, kEralA ans AndhrA has its own proverbs (I am sticking to languages which concern CM). The young may take an interest in learning their languages well by being exposed to them. It is better than being tickled by some inane, worthless expression of some comedian on the screen...

[srkris]

prepared becomes prepareD in Indian english (d is dental i.e dantya, while D is retroflex i.e murdhanya)

[arunk]

i think indian accent tends to overemphasize (an extra hard stop) the consonant ending in but and put - This is what Uday was referring to earlier.

srkris - I too am confused by your post. It reads as if you are implying that the "t" in but, is (more) like the th in bath (???)

Arun

[Nick H]

Nick, the "like" abuse is hardly restricted to teenagers! I've never heard of botheration before!
One of my friends is very particular about using the phrase "someone else" or "x-one else" in possessive form. He insists the grammatically correct usage is: "this is not MD's composition--it is someone's else!"

I think your friend is mistaken.

When I was a child, there was a government office called Postmaster General, and our teachers insisted that we use the correct plural form, postmasters general. Postmaster generals, although commonly used, is wrong.

But, someone's else ?

There are many occasions in language where strict theory gives way to usage. I believe the technical term is idiom? I've met some very pedantic English speakers, and never heard this one.

I wish I could remember enough grammar to parse the phrase; it might even be technically ok to say someone else's/

[Nick H]

I'm really confused by the ongoing but controversy --- but I would request that any reference to authority for pronunciation be to an English source. Merriam Webster is American?

Anyway, the second sample (butt) sounds like I would pronounce but and butt!. The first sample sounds like someone with an American accent saying "But"

Of course, my hearing results in the loss of some pronunciation subtleties.

There is an Indian "public speaking" accent which really gets on my nerves. It is 90% correct English, with about one word in ten mispronounced, or spoken with the emphasis shifted to the wrong syllable. It is agony to listen to, because the meaning of the speech is utterly lost in listening for the mistakes. This is "polished" presentation by professionals, who are, no doubt, utterly confident that they are correct --- but where did they learn this "English"? It is far from correct. Oddly, so far as I am able to tell, it is not American either.

I've heard this on the TV, and, occasionally, 'live' at functions.

[rajeeram]

Yes, I too have never heard of "someone's else" from anyone else:)

Of course the common mistakes like daughter-in-laws etc. are part of the Indian English.

I must say, one of my peeves is the mixing up of your and you're, especially prevalent here in the U.S.

Talking about grammar and style, the dreaded "The Elements of Style", at least by me, since my Mum used this book as the choice weapon of critique on the writings of us hapless kids, just turned 50.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/22/books ... ?ref=books

[Nick H]

daughters-in-law --- much better example than mine!

I would not be able to bring myself to say, or write, daughter-in-laws!

you're, your, its, it's, and similar, whilst sometimes wrong from ignorance, are just as often typos. I am quite likely to make such mistakes, although I know well which ones I should be using.