An interesting article on "Thyagarajar and Dikshithar"

[srinivasrgvn]

This is a very interesting article titled "Tyagaraja & Dikshitar - A Study in Comparison".This article by Sri RR was first published by Yogavedanta Forest Academy, Rishikesh, 1958.

'Hamlet' staged, with the Prince of Denmark left out - such has been the case of Carnatic Music. Tyagaraja, Dikshitar, and Syama Sastri have been deified as the Trinity of South Indian Music. But the genius who first gave the art 'a local habitation and a name' has almost been forgotten. It was Purandaradasa who took the cue from the Tallapakam fraternity and popularised the modern Kriti with its clear cut features of Pallavi, Anupallavi and Charanam. He thus created the model for the Trinity and a host of latter-day composers.

However, a combination of circumstances, most of them obvious enough, has kept in oblivion a composer of his eminence and denied to generations of musicians and music lovers the great art treasure of this hoary patriarch. Tradition has it that Tyagaraja learnt hundreds of Purandara's compositions from his own mother. It is not improbable that Dikshitar also drew upon this abundant lore for his inspiration (vide 'Krishnadvaipayana' in Kamboji). Though Tyagaraja and Dikshitar built on similar foundations each developed a technique and style all his own. Consequently there have been two schools of music in South India, one passionately devoted to Tyagaraja, and the other upholding the traditions of Dikshitar. It is a healthy sign of the times that the 'cold war' between the protagonists of the two schools has been slowly dying out for sometime now.

An earnest Sadhaka, calm and serene, with his mind detached from worldly pursuits and tuned to Sri Vidyopasana, dedicating his vast classical erudition and knowledge of music to the service of his tutelary deity, Lord Tyagaraja of Tiruvarur shrine - this is the personality that Dikshitar reveals through his compositions.

Why did he choose Sanskrit as his medium of expression? With the exception of Jayadeva, there has been no Sanskrit composer of standing, either before or after Dikshitar. Even in his own times Telugu had established its reputation as a language pre-eminently suited for music, thanks to Tyagaraja, Syama Sastri and others. Dikshitar himself could not resist its charms. This is borne out by a number of Telugu compositions that stand to his credit.

Another illustrious contemporary, Gopalakrishna Bharati, poured forth the longings of his awakened soul in his own mother-tongue, Tamil. Therefore, something more than traditional reverence for 'the language of the Gods' prompted the choice. The intellectual highbrow and the philosopher that Dikshitar was, he perhaps felt like the Devonshire congregation of the Reformation days, when it declared that the new English Prayer-Book was like a Christmas game and demanded the restoration of the old Latin Mass. Be that as it may, Dikshitar has amply justified his choice. He drew liberally on the ancient Vedic lore, rather than on the poetic or literary output of the more recent past-the Vaidika, as distinct from the Lowkika, style in Sanskrit. His exquisite sense of the value of diction has made his compositions models of pure and dignified Sanskrit. He has tapped the boundless wealth of rhyme and meter for which Sanskrit holds the field, and wrought a perfect concord between word and sound.

Doubtless, the limitations of an unspoken language were there. And Dikshitar added to them by restricting the scope of his utterances to a rather stereotyped rhymnody in praise of the vast Hindu Pantheon. Profusion of words, lack of emotional appeal, unvarying theme and want of spirit are some of the features that have told on the worth and popularity of Dikshitar's output. On the other hand, his mastery of Sanskrit and the Classics was thorough. His Swarakshara Prayogas, Raga - Mudras ('Arabhi' concealed in 'Samsara Bheeti') Srothovaha and Gopuchcha Yathi artifices ('Thyagaraja' in Anandabhairavi), etc., are marvels of verbal imagery and consummate craftsmanship in musical architecture. Interesting details of topography and local history abound in songs like 'Sri Mahaganapati' in Goula. The delineation of planets and their satellites in the Navagraha Keertanas, the Shodasa Ganapati series, the Panchalinga series, the Tyagaraja Ashtakam and the Guru Ashtakam in all the eight cases, the Abhayamba and Navavarana series, combine sweetness of music form and ineffable lingual charm. In short, Dikshitar's kritis are epitomes of Sanskrit culture and exalted melodic expression.

The unvarying theme, referred to above, coupled, perhaps, with a philosophic bias towards passivity and exclusiveness, if not downright inhibition, set very definite limits to the subject matter of his compositions. Besides, he had to free himself from the shackles of an outworn nebulous, musical tradition before he could rise to his full stature. Therefore, the effort and strain that his unfolding involved stamped his compositions with a heavy, ponderous gait, which, however, lacked neither force nor majesty. Besides, the deliberate, long-drawn out tempo had its refreshing counterpart in the sumptuous complement of smart Madhyama - kaala frills that usually adorn Dikshitar's Kritis.

But for one or two hints like those in the Vegavahini and Amritavarshini Kritis about his prayer for relief from famine and the anguish born of disappointment at the hands of the base and the vulgar, we have no clue to Dikshitar as a man. He leaves us in wonder, the more so by the cosmopolitan taste and impressionism with which he has chosen the tune of the English National Anthem and a number of other English songs for his own pieces, impressed touches of Hindustani music in quite a number of his Kritis, and composed a Manipravala song in praise of the deity at Pulivalam.

From the placid, contemplative tenor of Dikshitar's outpourings to the myriad varieties of melody-types, swelling crescendos and delicate arabesques of Tyagaraja is a delectable experience at seesaw, 'balancing the one with his opposite, on which the health of the state depends'. His fecund creative genius and spontaneous emotional upsurges have no parallel, on the count of either quality or quantity of output, in the history of music as a whole.

In the process of its evolution from Sanskrit the Telugu Language acquired a great phonetic refinement. One of the sweetest and most popular living languages in India, it was also Tyagaraja's mother tongue. He turned these advantages to good account and succeeded in presenting beauty in sound framed in the minimum of words. This departure from the tradition, referred to above, was a turning point in the progress of art. Till then, music had played a secondary part. As in the Thevaram and Thirupugazh, the theme developed through the same texture of music repeated ad infinitum. It was all that Dikshitar could do to circumvent this by resorting to madhyamakala appendages. But it was given to Tyagaraja to proclaim the proper function of music as a vehicle of emotional expression. The greater the music content of a piece, the fewer were the words he employed. On this congenial ground, he built the variations unknown to those before him. The picturesque combination of notes in all their sustained cadences, compressed within a particular time measure, with the distribution of words intact, (Padagarbham) and with the whole edifice of the melody type growing more impressive, varied and elaborate at each successive step - this is popularly known as sangatis. The introduction of this ingenious device revolutionised the entire system of our music. Consequently the post- Tyagaraja period of more than a century now has altogether broken from the past and followed the line opened by him.

Dikshitar composed one or two pieces in the seventy-two major modes of Venkatamakhi. Only a limited number of janya ragas came in for his notice. But they all bear testimony to the scrupulous care with which he made them perfect and complete in themselves. Nevertheless, the region of the raga remained as yet unexplored. Tyagaraja's contribution in this respect cannot be adequately measured. He composed a large number of songs in ragas that were familiar in his days. He brought to light hundreds of unknown ragas and wrought priceless gems in them. His genius was so prolific that songs in the same raga were sufficiently marked and bore distinct features of it. The range and extent of his treatment of ragas, the astounding variety in tempo and style, the exhaustive treatment of Laya and the spirit and liveliness of 'turning and wheeling with the agility of a hawk upon its wing', are characteristics peculiar to Tyagaraja. Dikshitar, perhaps, intended it as a homage to his great contemporary, when, he adopted the latter's tunes for his own compositions, 'Sri Guruguho', 'Kshitijaramanam' and 'Anantha Balakrishnam'.

Tyagaraja differed from Dikshitar not only in the choice of medium and mode of expression, but in that of the theme as well. A profound mystic to whom Sri Rama was the warp and woof of his very existence, he has been hailed as the incarnation of Valmiki. In moods of ecstasy he had visions which bodied forth in the lyrical flow of word and song (Paritapamu, Datsukovalena, Upacharamu). The aesthetic and spiritual influence of music stirred the depths of his emotion. Swara-raga-sudha, Seeta-vara, Mokshamu and Sangeethajnanamu are specimens of his panegyric on music. From references to the small rubs from unkind neighbours and his own kith and kin (Teliyaleru, Adaya, Palukavemi) to serious dissertation on life's eternal problems (Dvaitamu, Paramatmudu) he covered a vast ground. This wholesome variety all round was the keynote of Tyagaraja's greatness. Appropriately enough, his compositions have been spoken of as Tyagopanishad.

The foregoing survey, by no means exhaustive or comprehensive, may yet explain the abiding, universal popularity of the one as compared with the limited appeal of the other. Tyagaraja's compositions have penetrated the aesthetic life of a whole nation. No musical activity, be it a performance, a dramatic show, or even a conference, may be imagined without the place of honour assigned to them. Pride of place is assuredly theirs even in Tamil homes afflicted with blind language predilections, till, perhaps, another Tyagaraja rises in the firmament and brings light and life to Tamil Music. Thus Tyagaraja enjoys the status of a national composer and the most outstanding tone-poet of the world, while Dikshitar, with all his creative genius and prodigious skill, has reached but a few.

Nevertheless, both were men of great learning, deep piety and rare gifts of vision and originality. They pursued the same ideal of a simple, virtuous life, with no eye on popular applause or other worldly gains. They were pioneer veterans who transformed the course of the history of our music by the sheer vitality and enduring quality of their contribution. So long as music retains its hold on our minds as a source of joy and solace, both Tyagaraja and Dikshitar will live enshrined in the hearts of all true lovers of art and culture.

LINK: http://www.vipanci.com/articles.php?art ... w_option=1

Thank you, Sangeethapriya member Sri Ramani.

[vasanthakokilam]

Thanks srinivasrgvn.

I felt that nothing else need to be said on this topic of Tyagaraja vs Dikshitar. What a scholarly, concise and clear presentation of a tough and complex topic!! It shows RR's depth of understanding of the matters at hand.

I like Rangaramanuja Iyengar's writing style very much. (Anyone who sneaks in my favorite phrase "Be that as it may" is one up in my books. )

When I read the first few beginning words, immediately my mind went into exasperation, 'ugghh.. one of those paragraph long comparisons to English literature however flimsy the connection is' but to my pleasant surprise, he just stopped with those few words!. And a very appropriate and meaningful few words!! It had the opposite effect: It got me hooked to read further. I am glad I did.

His comment regarding music taking the leading role as the medium of emotional expression than words "The greater the music content of a piece, the fewer were the words he (Thyagaraja) employed" is relevant to the discussion in the thread about Thyagaraja's various charanams. (http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php? ... ranam.html). Similar thought is what prompted me to ponder Thyagaraja's ideas on song construction. Does a song with a lot of sangathis ( where music is given a quite a bit of scope to reign over the same set of words - Different music over the same words ) also have numerous charanams ( where words dominate the music given that the same tunes are employed repeatedly for all the charanam words - Different words over the same music ) Or is there an inverse relationship between these two aspects of compositions? If the latter is the case, then RR is right on in his observation!

[vidya]

Dikshitar composed one or two pieces in the seventy-two major modes of Venkatamakhi.

Well, if we assume by implication that the 72 major modes of Venkatamakhi are sampurNa which atleast according to Dikshitar were not!

Dikshitar, perhaps, intended it as a homage to his great contemporary, when, he adopted the latter's tunes for his own compositions, 'Sri Guruguho', 'Kshitijaramanam' and 'Anantha Balakrishnam'.

Perhaps indeed! Perhaps they both borrowed the Devagandhari idea from Paidala's gItam or Perhaps Tyagaraja adopted Dikshitar's kIrtanams or perhaps it is the handiwork of the shishya paramparas a generation or two down the line. Who is to say which is the truer perhaps?

[vasanthakokilam]

Vidya: Yes, that is an interesting speculation on the part of RR that it was MD's homage to T.

Are the tunes of the three MD songs mentioned exactly same as Thyagaraja's song? Which are those songs of Thyagaraja?

[cmlover]

Shyama Sastri's encounter with T is well documented. But there are no historical records of the encounters between the two giants T and MD. Usually in an agraharam the orthodox brahmins consider the Telugu Brahmins as intruders and do not interact freely with them. (I am speaking from my childhood experience too!). It is quite likely T and MD avoided social interactions. We also cannot rule out the 'jealousy factor' which is natural for humans. Some of T's lyrical attacks on the behaviour of local Brahmins (without naming names) clearly show the social conflicts. One of the reasons why he stuck to Telugu and Sanskrit rather than using the local lingua franca. It is too much to read into the lines that either one admired the other while the contrary may be true. Any similarity may be the result of both imbibing the currently existing common modality of CM in the region at that time.

[vasanthakokilam]

CML, T and MD did not live in the same town. ( I am mentioning this since you mentioned about this non-mingling agraharam politics ).

BTW, since we can not read what were in their minds, we have to go by their works. Don't even speculate about attributing jealosy to the man in the musical context who wrote a dedicated magnum opus on acknowledging the greatness among others!!

[cmlover]

Are you claiming they were 'Super human'?
Sambamoorthy refers to an event where T thrashed a little boy for stepping on the vaDaams which were kept for drying in front of his house- a typical human behaviour. We cannot assess the personality of one from what he writes! Then every writer of books on morals must be sainted!

[vasanthakokilam]

CML, no I am not saying that. They are humans and they do have normal human emotions. Absolutely. But that does not mean in this specific case that was on display. I am saying the opposite. Since we do not know about their inner mental states, we can only go by their own stated words. For example, I am not immune from jealousy but I can say with absolutely no reservation that I do not have any jealousy towards Tim-Berners Lee but only immense admiration. I may even go to the extent of thinking 'I wish I had thought of that' but that is not jealousy.

[cmlover]

VK
We never know for sure. Both are well respected musicians. They lived in close neighbourhood. Their sishyas never interacted. Both were physically fit and we can rule out any physical infirmity as a barrier. But then neither of them spoke or refer to the other in their lyrics or on record. Why? Jealosy can be one explanation, isn't it?

[vasanthakokilam]

- Thiruvayyaru and Thiruvarur are not close neighborhoods
- Neither one wrote about specific people. RR's article touches upon that very well. ( with some rare exceptions in T's works. I think T refers to Purandaradasa )
- We know of atleast one musician who had learnt from both MD and T.
- And T specifically acknowledges the greatness of others.

Of course anything is speculatable, but given all this, speculation of Jealosy is very far in the long tail of the probability curve for me.

Having said all that, I am abundantly curious about knowing more if the two had met or had encounters with each other either directly or through their disciples ( and with their connections in Tanjore, Thiruvayyar and Chennai ).
Whatever I wrote above is specifically about MD and T. Who knows what the motivations of the disciples were. I can easily see factions building up over time among the disciples and followers of the two schools for the pettiest of reasons.

[vidya]

Vidya: Yes, that is an interesting speculation on the part of RR that it was MD's homage to T.
Are the tunes of the three MD songs mentioned exactly same as Thyagaraja's song? Which are those songs of Thyagaraja?

VK,
Quoting from another RRI article,

Perhaps, by sheer accident, the two never met, though it may not be wide of the mark that 'Dinamani', 'Kalaharana' and 'Ksheerasagara' had reached his ears and inspired his 'Ananta Balakrishna', 'Sri Guru Guha' and 'Kshitija Ramanam'.

[cmlover]

How far is Thiruvayaru from Thiruvarur ? I am poor on geography

[cmlover]

Another explanation would be that either had not heard about the other. That is most unlikely. MD is the itinerant musician who knew about what was going on in the region. In fact I guess his reputaion had reached Swati who invited MD's prime sishyas to be in his court. MD died too young to have been honoured by him. In fact these shishyas might have enlightened Swati about T whence he sought him for his court. If we rule out jealousy an alternate can be 'pride'. Each may have thought that the other must have paid a visit. Note that SS visited T and not the other way. Note that all these are speculations based on normal human behaviour. If you treat them as 'purANa puruShaa' then there is no argument!

[vasanthakokilam]

CML, You know how far Thiruvayyar is from Thiruvarur.

My reason for pointing that out is, initially you brought in the agraharam business which gave the implication that they lived in the same town but in separate agraharams, then you said 'neighborhood'. I just wanted to point out they lived in towns that are geographically separated by a reasonable distance for that time period given the mode of transportation available then etc.

As I wrote, I am also curious about their potential interactions. I also agree that it is strange that they did not encounter each other directly given MD's extensive travel record. Has he composed songs on the deity of Thiruvayyaru? ( let us assume that he composed his songs on various sthalams while visiting there ).

It is quite possible we are committing the serious error of looking at the past through current day's lenses. It is bound to be very distorted. That is why I am very careful and hesitant in attributing human emotions to this when there could be a perfectly reasonable explanation that prevailed then. ( I lived within a couple of blocks of Nobel Laureate Prof. Chandrasekar but I never paid a visit to him though I admire him enormously and I would have considered a privilge to have visited him. But I felt bad not to have visited the Fermi Lab sthalam though protons and anti-protons are probably whizzing past a block from me now. So I paid a visit. Just to be sure no implication here to equate 'me:Prof. C' vs 'MD:T ').

[vasanthakokilam]

Thanks Vidya.

Let me collect the links to these pairs of songs, so we can listen back to back.

ananta-bAlakRSNa (MD) : http://www.sangeethamshare.org/sunil/gu ... -Shiva.mp3
dinamani vamsa (T): http://sangeethapriya.org/tributes/thya ... i--MLV.mp3

Sri Guruguha (MD): http://www.sangeethamshare.org/sunil/gu ... M--DKP.mp3
kAlaharanam (T): http://sangeethapriya.org/tributes/thya ... a--DKP.mp3

kSitijAramaNam (MD): http://www.sangeethamshare.org/sunil/gu ... i--DKJ.mp3
KshErasAgara (T): http://sangeethapriya.org/tributes/thya ... akshmi.mp3

[cmlover]

VK
Human nature and emotions are always the same. Only now we are analyzing them critically using scientific tools. Even existing 'historical evidence' is corrupt as you would have learned from the walajapet thread
http://rasikas.org/forums/post117292.html#p117292
that myths have been built around T which are not reported by contemporary historians. These myths become facts and get emphasized. When you look through objective 'scientific' glasses many of these do not stand the scrutiny. No doubt the Music is great. But one need not invoke supernatural elements to justify them. Even today when I visit India I hear about a number of local miracles which get exploded from time to time! No! I am not an atheist

[vasanthakokilam]

CML: Let me state one point straight and clearly, speaking just for myself. I am not coming at this with any notions of supernatural elements, sainthood or miracles. I am fully aware of such things surrounding our great composers. I cherish historical information that does not involve such myths. And I look at these things in the most rational way.

Having said that, let me turn the tables back at you. You are the one who is using 'extra scientific' means to speculate about T and MD's mental states using purely circumstantial trace evidence when there is hard evidence to the contrary.

[cmlover]

OK! I am with you. We can analyze human behaviour rationally. We are not quite different from animals in many respects. Primal emotions of Anger, Fear, Jealousy, Love, Hate, Survival Instinct are common to all of us. We humans have the extra ability to dissemble! We also have 'Logic' with a well-developed frontal lobe which the animals lack. We can use 'logical analysis' to arrive at reasonable conclusions where History fails. Many historians actually use it and call it 'Intelligent Guess'!

[mahesh_narayan]

It was interesting for me to note that Sri RRI has mentioned Lord Tyagaraja as Dikshitar's tutelary deity. I always thought it was Lord Subrahmanya of Tiruttani who granted him divine inspiration that enabled him to compose so wonderfully as he did !!!.

Both Tyagaraja and Dikshitar have produced some brilliant compositions on Lord Shiva (I like ilalo praNathArthi harudanucu even though it is a nindAstutI). The lord's majestic stature is amply brought out by these kritis. Ah, the serenity of sadAsivam upasmahE, tyAgarAja yOga vaibhavam, rAmanAtham bhajEham, ehi trijagadIshA, E vasudha, or deva srI tapastIrthapuravihArA......divine !!!.

[cmlover]

Where is the 'Hard' evidence? You get nothing from their writings; thye don't recognize each other! None of the contemporaries confirm an encounter. The probablity is very high that they have met each other or 'did not' for some reason. That is where I am trying to apply the 'logical analysis'.

[vasanthakokilam]

My 'Hard' evidence is Endaro Mahanubhavulu. Well you can claim that T could have been hypocritical but that is again extra-scientific.

[cmlover]

I am lost here. This is a very generic compliment to the devotees and he mentions only puranik characters. I will call it a 'motherhood' statement. He again focuses on the devotees of Rama! What about Saivites? How can you interpret this as a compliment to MD?

On that score you will claim Bharathidasan a great philanthropist for composing the song:
'ellOrum vaazha vENDum
makkaL inbuRRiRukka vENDum..'

[vasanthakokilam]

I do not interpret it as a direct compliment to MD but as evidence that Thyagaraja does not see others as a threat or have a need to feel jealous about but in fact goes out of his way to acknowledge the greatness in others. ( let us not bring rama-vs-siva aspects in to this )

"salutations to all those great men in this world ! "

"they sing your praise with true devotion and they have good knowledge of swara, laya & raga."


You can easily say it does not mean much. That is fine and I do not have anything else to offer as evidence.

[cmlover]

He mentions Prahlada, Narada, Thumburu, Anjaneya, Siva (? a minor deity), Suka, Brahma and Brahmiins (all except the last are mythical characters!). He could have cited Purandara at least!
OVK cites the names of all the Azhvars while paying obeisaance. So you are willing to accept the generic reference to Brahmins is a fig leaf broad enough to cover all the great men (including MD but not Purandara

When you interpret 'endaro..' literally as paying obeisance to the greats, you will have to accept 'Duduku kala' as a 'confession'

[vasanthakokilam]

CML: I fail to see why you are looking at this as glass half empty as opposed to half full.

He says two things:

"salutations to all those great men in this world " in the refain. There is no doubt about what this means. we do not have to bring in gods and godheads from
other parts of the composition to the refrain.

He specifically talks about people who are good at Swaras, laya and ragas and that is an explicit acknowledgement of great musicians and his salutations to them.

As I wrote before, my point is it is not about MD directly: T is calling out and profusey saluting musically knowledgeable people.

You have not produced any evidence of T or MD expressing jealousy towards each other, it is all speculation and extremely circumstantial evidence and that too in minute trace amounts.
How can you then claim scientific and rational superiority with that position and at the same time tear down the man's very own words and denying it adds to the 'non-jealousy' side of the argument?

I am out of ideas beyond this point, so I will turn it over to you and others

[rshankar]

He could have cited Purandara at least!

CML he mentions purnadara, and tulsidAs specifically by name among many others in his ''guru and sadpuruSula vandana' in the prelude to prahlAda bhakti vijayam....

[ksrimech]

OVK cites the names of all the Azhvars while paying obeisaance.

Can you quote the lines?

[cmlover]

My argument is not one sided. It is 50-50. MD has also not produced clear evidence of respecting T. One thing we can rule out which is, a family feud! I am not lookiing at a positive with a negative perspective. Their not meeting is a negative event. If they did and it was not reported then it is indeed an injustice from that generation who have chronicled their lives. T certainly would have attended the Funeral of MD and would even have composed a kirtanam on that occasion. There is a black-hole in the lives of these two giants which is indeed a mystery!

[cmlover]

Shankar
I missed that! let me study it carefully.. Thanks

[cmlover]

OVK cites the names of all the Azhvars while paying obeisaance.

Can you quote the lines?

The song is AlavathennaLo. Lakshman can kindly give the whole lyrics....

[ksrimech]

The song is AlavathennaLo.

ALAvadennALo in paraju sings the praise of all (yes!) the 63 nAyanmArs and not the 12 AzhvArs.

You can find the names of madura kavi azhvar, SrImad rAmanujar (not an azhvAr), kulaSEkarAzhvAr, periyAzhvAr (viSNuchittA) and tirumangaiyAzhvAr (parakAla) in the nATTai kRiti bhajanAmRta paramAnanda. Surprisingly he doesn't even mention nammAzhvAr's name who redefined kRSNa bhakti in the south. We don't see other azhvArs being mentioned.

http://sangeethapriya.org/tributes/ovk/ ... tnaEng.pdf

[arasi]

It was exciting while it lasted! A spar between the two of you is always exciting.
I am wondering if T and MD are having a good time too, eavesdropping on this

[cmlover]

Shankar
Just found it! He pays homage to Narada, Tulsidasa, Purandara and Ramadasa in the first gandapadyam followed by homage to Panduranga, Namadeva, Gnyanadeva, Sahadeva, Jayadeva, Thukaram and Narayana thIrtha in prose during the introduction appropriately.
Thanks

[rshankar]

CML - there you go!!

[Purist]

Looks like a 20 : 20 of VK Vs CML

[sridhar_ranga]

Just found it! He pays homage to Narada, Tulsidasa, Purandara and Ramadasa in the first gandapadyam followed by

Wasn't there another thread that mentioned that Purandara as referred here might not necessarily be Purandara dasa, the word Purandara having other meanings (including brahmA) etc.?

[inconsequential]

Dear cml sir, vk

I am a bit confused about where and how this question of the two giants not meeting comes? and why the speculations? I have a faint recollection of reading the following at the old sangeetham website: I think I had also heard it some where. It sounded very good to me and I had no problem believing.

srI muttuswAmi dIkShitar very well visited sadguru tyAgarAjaswAmi and composed the song mAmava paTTAbhirAma in maNirangu right in front of the ArAdhana murthy at the saint's residence. The article did mention that sadguruswAmi was doing rAmAyaNa pArAyaNam and on the day of the paTTAbhishEkam he heard that the other mahAn srI muttuswAmi dIkshitar was in town. He sent his disciples to invite him to visit his kudisai. Following his nityArAdhanam, swAmi requested srI dIshitar to sing for his rAma (my rAma). Given the context, it said srI muttuswAmi dIkshitar composed this song right there in maNirangu. Usually, in his songs there are some indications of the place / local history (sthala purANam) or related information - giving a hint of which shrine the song was composed at. In this song, there is no such hint. This further added to my taking in this inspiring episode without any question!

I have not done any further homework to verify the truth behind this because as I said, I didn't feel the need to.

Apart from this, what is wrong with being human and singing about pain, evil-plays of the mind etc? What has it got to do with the exalted status that they have attained! In my mind, both can happen in one's lifetime - and the incident of tyAgarAjaswAmi thrashing a boy for running over vaDAms really does not mean anything. It was only a pretext. The boy needed a scolding for some impish behaviour, may be - It does not say anything about swAmi's virakti/vairAgya/krOdham etc.

And regarding 'duduku gala', there is a stage in the (spiritual progress) bhakti mArgam, called (Atma)nirvEdam - where one is repentent for the endless sins committed and feels terribly scared - said to happen when one lets go of any support from this world and looks only for the saving grace of the lord. Keeping a layman in mind, swAmi could have composed this song. Even if you are inclined to believe that it was all a list of confessions and that he himself committed all those sins - he does not mention that he committed all of them in that very avatar as tyAgaraja of tiruvaiyyAru.

Regards
-Varadharajan

[girish_a]

Some refutations to CML's hypotheses:

It is quite likely T and MD avoided social interactions. We also cannot rule out the 'jealousy factor' which is natural for humans.

These were not musicians in the ordinary sense of the term. They were not worldly men.

They were mystics, and nor mere apprentices at that. They were high souls for whom music was merely a medium of expressing their love of God. It will not sound far-fetched to say that their love of God was unmixed with jealousy and such other human weaknesses.

Someone has said that Shyama Shastri was a man "who spoke to the Goddess and to whom the Goddess spoke". Surely, Thyagaraja and MD were of the same class? Would such men ever indulge in rivalry over musical scholarship?

It seems more likely that an occasion did not arise for them to meet.

But this article seems to say that a meeting between them did indeed take place:
http://www.sruti.com/downloads/Tyagaraj ... 20Meet.pdf

There was also a thread that I started to discuss this:
http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php? ... -meet.html

Are you claiming they were 'Super human'?

Who is 'super human'? Someone who has transcended human frailties, surely? In that sense, it would not be wrong to say they were indeed super human.

[ragam-talam]

I believe this question of whether MD and T met was covered a while back on this forum. No speculations required.

Here's an article written by Dr V.V. Srivatsa on this topic:
http://www.sruti.com/downloads/Tyagaraj ... 20Meet.pdf

[cmlover]

Thanks folks. The VVS article does provide some objective evidence which trumps mysticism. Lexical analysis of these kritis will be very helpful. The historic meet between T and GKB is well documented and the abhogi kriti 'sabhapathikku..' is indeed a gem. Similarly the manirangu 'maamava paTTTaabhi' is a classic and it is credible that it was composed on a special occasion. It will be nice to see an anlysis of this lyric vis-a-vis the idol worshipped by T. That will put to rest the nagging question of whether they met or not! Though just a plain invocation of mysticism or tacit assumptions will not suffice as a rational explanation. Independently it will be interesting to investigate the interactions between the sishyas of both T and MD who indeed form the warp and woof of CM as we know today. Again though T composed primarily in Telugu, his sanskrit compositions are crisp and erudite which perhaps may have been influenced by MD's works though linguistically and format-wise they bear the unique stamp of T distinct from MD's style. Again a comparative lexical analysis will be fruitful.

Is vara shikhi vaahana the only composition of T on Lord Subramanya? Is it authentic?

[vasanthakokilam]

That 'Sruti' article does not do much for me. Definitely, it is better than nothing in terms of research ( atleast we can give the jealousy discussion a rest ), but we would like a bit more rigor there. We need references to that Nayaki anecdotes ( is that wirten by any disciples or just word of mouth transmission of information ).

I am surprised the Sruti article starts off on the wrong foundational premise, about them living in Tiruvarur for many overlapping years!!

[ksrimech]

Wasn't there another thread that mentioned that Purandara as referred here might not necessarily be Purandara dasa, the word Purandara having other meanings (including brahmA) etc.?

You are correct. But that discussion was not for this context. It was for the purandara shabdam in one of the charaNas in kanakanaruchirA (varALi). There it means only devEndran (not brahmA). In this context it refers only to purandaradAsaru. This is because of the list of parama bhAgavathAs of SrIkRSNa bhakti, tyAgarAjasvAmi is putting forward.

CML - was reading your from endarO (post #24). You have left out the first set of words - parama bhAgavatha mouni vara.......I don't know whether it is helping this T20 match going on here. I'm reminded of a saying from the SrIvaiSNava parlance - "chandattilE irundadu chandaslE illai". That is why he collectively called them parama bhAgavatha and mouni vara. Does that imply he is not paying his respects to to parASarA, vyAsA and sukhA?

There is one more kriti of tyAgarajA on SaNmukA, nivaNTi deivamu (tODi): http://www.karnatik.com/c2673.shtml.

[cmlover]

VK
On the other hand I found the shruti article stimulating since he is not clouding the issue with mysticism. I just listened to SRJ's rendering of varashikhi vaahana which is mind blowing (you must listen to it if you have not!). It is unique in that it is a Eka raaga kriti. The sanskrit sahitya is very colourful but no inkling of MD structure. If T had intended it as a sly reference to MD there is no evidence suggesting that!

I agree jealousy can be ruled out. Yet another hypothesis is 'indifference'. Neither T or MD were well-known during their life-time; their greatness was recognized only over time. I agree T was better known in comparison with MD but the latter may have 'ignored' him. Just like Dr. Chandrashekar not caring to meet with VK (though he may have known about him

I still would like to see a good analysis of the superb manirangu 'maamava paTTaabhi rama..'

ksrimech

I did not attempt a complete scan of endaro and may have missed some messages. But my doubts are cleared after looking at 'Prahlada bhakti vijayam..' referred by shankar... I have also no doubt Purandara therein refers only to Purandaradasa....

[vasanthakokilam]

Neither T or MD were well-known during their life-time; their greatness was recognized only over time. I agree T was better known in comparison with MD

Right on! That is what I was referring to when I wrote ( around the 10th over ) that some of this may be due to us looking at the past with today's lens.

As an aside, do we know that during their life time, T was better known than MD in the CM circle? It is fairly well known that there was Tanjore-T connection ( T's disciple's father was a court musician in Tanjore ) and then there was also Tanjore-MD connection as well.

[cmlover]

One of the reasons may be the longer life of T. MD died in 1835 a full 12 years before T's demise. I guess T was much better known during his later years! I guess Swati got to know of T from the sishyas of MD whence he sent Govinda maarar to invite him to his court. I guess MD was no more at that time.

Thanks ksirimech for that second reference to a kriti on Lord Subramanya...

[vasanthakokilam]

I still would like to see a good analysis of the superb manirangu 'maamava paTTaabhi rama..'

Yes, I agree. The Sruthi article does add value to this discussion by referring to this krithi. I would also like to know what the evidence is (even trace amounts, circumstantial, word of mouth ) for the rest of the story surrounding that ( that MD was in Thiruvayyaru, he visited T's house while he was doing the pooja and T asked him to sing the mangalam etc. ). We have to be careful that someone did not weave that wonderful story based on the analysis of 'maamava paTTaabhi rama'.

[arasi]

CML,
The 'Chandra' connection--or of not connecting. Chandrasekhar might have heard of VK. Since C was reputed to be a recluse, the meeting never took place...

[cmlover]

You mean the Chandra was hiding in a 'black hole'

[cmlover]

Is the picture of the ArAdhanA vigraham of Thyagaraja available anywhere?

[prashant]

Is vara shikhi vaahana the only composition of T on Lord Subramanya? Is it authentic?

There is one more composition: nIvaNTi daivamunu shaDAnana: http://thyagaraja-vaibhavam.blogspot.co ... ivamu.html