peevish about language

[arasi]

I was thinking of mother-in-laws and I hear daughter-in-laws! Age appropriate, I suppose.

Nick,
If YOU should get annoyed with the pompous speakers (you tolerate more than your share of Indian ways), it really must sound awful. As Bilahari pointed out, it is the 'put on' accent which irritates. vezhi vezhi annoying and amusing, at the same time.
I have to admit that those of us who have been away from India for a long time have a mixed accent--it is funny how we lean towards the English we hear around us and gravitate towards it wherever we happen to be. The same with you I suppose when you hear your voice amid the British, soon after you arrive in England

[vasanthakokilam]

After thinking about this, I think I understand what srkris is saying as the right way for 'but'. Explanation by Uday and Arun helped. The transliteration like 'th' 'Th' and the devanagari letters are very confusing.

So, here is how I understand it, subject to verifcation with a few native speakers of English next week.

dental 'but' - the right way, the tounge touches the upper pallette close to the roof of the teeth ( the gum area ) with the tip of the tongue
retroflex 'but' - Indian way. The tongue curves and touches the upper pallette further back and gives the harder sound.

Right?

Do Indian languages have proper dental sounds or they are all mostly retroflex and aspirated? ( I guess 'n' is dental )

[rajeeram]

Arasi :) Age appropriate indeed! Freudian may be:)

I notice this put-on accent among the customer service folks in India that handle our calls from the US.
"Hello Ramasubramaniam Krishnaswamy" (Till here it's perfect and as soon as you heave a huge sigh of relief that you don't have to take the 2 minutes to spell out your name, it starts going downhill) , "This is Crrraig, may I have the customa numba? What's the pzhablem you are having with your computa? You said it ain't booting up?"

Jokes apart, it must be really hard to put on an American/foreign accent at work for 10,12 hours and then go back to reality, day in and day out.

Accents, even within Tamizh, are a huge issue. It can cause family feuds:). One should hear the Tamizh that I speak to my Keralite family and the Tamizh I speak to my husband and his Banglorean family, two distinctly different tongues. It took me years of practice; getting a vacant stare after ranting and raving for 2 minutes straight is not an experience one can put up with for too long:):).

[bilahari]

I don't believe Indian languages have purely dental phonemes, right? "N" (2 chuzhi) I would think is alveolar. Also, wouldn't the "t" in "but" rather be dental-alveolar rather than purely dental? I have very vague memories of my linguistics class, unfortunately, and there too our focus was on sign language and the evolution of language.

[coolkarni]

.

[vganesh]

So much to read about language.... A joke : My friend (from Austria) has asked why did in India we changed the name of the cities (Bombay to Mumbai, Madras to Chennai etc.., ) I told him that these were the original names and The British changed the names in between. Now he wanted to pronounce to Thiruvanathapuram ( from Trivandrum) ... I just could not manage to teach him

[Nick H]

Thiruvanathapuram --- and even you left an "n" out!

As a Brit I'm not nearly as peeved by English usage as you might expect.

Arasi, I don't think my accent has changed. I'm afraid it is still frightfully middle-class English! The words I use have caught the local usage though, which would sound odd back in UK.

What I loathe is the worst of American jargon English, especially from the sales and management departments (I can live with American English; its just different, and sometimes even an insight into how English English was when it got exported), and, unfortunately, this gets imported into Indian English. My classic example is upgradation; two nonsense syllables added by someone who didn't seem to realise that upgrade is a noun as well as a verb, or, more likely, didn't think it sounded fancy or saleable!

[vasanthakokilam]

nick, I agree upgradation is bad but I have not heard that being used by Americans though. It may be just of Indian making. Along the same lines, prepone ( as opposite of postpone ) was also once suspected by some to be invented by Americans but I think that is also pure Indianism.

[coolkarni]

..

[Nick H]

Pre-pone is almost certainly Indian; USAians are as baffled by it as Brits! Upgradation is typical of school-of a certain recent US president who either wasn't very literate or (apparently he had a very expensive education) pretended not to be.

Any idea how the terms Main and Submain came into usage ?

I suppose every concert has its main item, colloquial abbreviation makes sense, but sub-main is stranger. "sub" I think. means "below", as in submarine, and as in sub-standard, which leads straight to an assumption of "lesser".

Has it been around a long time? Have to admit that I've only noticed it recently.

Should every piece be thus related to the main item in a concert? And should the concert structure be so rigid that that becomes possible? Hmmm... I suppose the structure is fairly rigid.

[sridhar_ranga]

Nick, let's hope no Indian sub-inspector or sub-judicial magistrate reads your post above

[rshankar]

Pre-pone is almost certainly Indian;

Along those lines, my first live experience of 'American English' was on the London to NYC leg of a flight from India (too many years ago to count) - and an announcement came on that 'we'd be taking off momentarily', and I went all a-green! Now, all those too many years later, I use the word as a noun to mean 'in a few moments' and not as an adverb to mean 'for a few moments' as I was originally familiar with(SIGH!) (the former meaning is now part of the OED as the American usage).

And Nick, the 'upgradation' you quote is an example of the difference between literacy and education - however high-priced it is, literacy can't guarantee an education!

[arasi]

And an education--even at a 'climber-clad' institution does not guarantee literacy for some!

[Nick H]

taking off momentarily That one is brilliant!

I am sometimes peeved by the misuse of English by our journalists, and one of their worst offences is literally the misuse of the word literally!

If I were teaching today's journalists, I would ask them to implement an updation (Aaaarrggghhh!) and please, stop using the word "interacting". I think The Hindu started this one. Suddenly there were no pictures of people talking, meeting, listening, discussing --- everybody was interacting.

[srkris]

After thinking about this, I think I understand what srkris is saying as the right way for 'but'. Explanation by Uday and Arun helped. The transliteration like 'th' 'Th' and the devanagari letters are very confusing.

So, here is how I understand it, subject to verifcation with a few native speakers of English next week.

dental 'but' - the right way, the tounge touches the upper pallette close to the roof of the teeth ( the gum area ) with the tip of the tongue
retroflex 'but' - Indian way. The tongue curves and touches the upper pallette further back and gives the harder sound.

Right?

Do Indian languages have proper dental sounds or they are all mostly retroflex and aspirated? ( I guess 'n' is dental )

That's right. That's what I wanted to say about the dentals and retroflexes.

Of course Indian languages have both dentals and retroflexes. Non Indian languages (like English) do not have retroflexes natively. Indian English has retroflexes since Indian speakers lend their native phonology to English when they speak the language.

For example, try should be pronounced like तà¥ÂÂ

[arasi]

'Their'! see 'were' we are now!
Another thing. Even when you do know the difference between the meaning and spelling of where and were, their and there and so on, when you are tired or sleepy, don't you merely go by the sound and type the wrong word? Or, am I alone in this?

[vasanthakokilam]

srkris: Thanks for verifying my understanding of the dental vs retroflex. Next week my colleagues are in for some pain and suffering as I ask them to repeat words for me!! One gentleman who has a good ear for such things occasionally points out that I do not say a few words properly, though there is no problem in understanding the word. Those were really some minute things. The fact that he can spot them amazes me. This discussion gives me the basis to verify with him if what he is pointing out falls into this dental vs retroflex thing.

BTW, when you say things like

"try should be pronounced like तà¥ÂÂ

[Nick H]

Around the rugged rock, the ragged rascal ran

"R" is a tough letter in English --- even for the English. The Scots seem to have less trouble with it, finding it easy to 'roll'. Some English speakers degrade it to sound more like a "w". I'm not that bad, but I know I don't say it really right.

[uday_shankar]

vk

The problem is as follows --- srkis has not effectively distinguished between two variations of the dental in english.

First, there's the t in "try".
Then there's "th" in certain words like "thirty" (this "th" is different from the one in say, "them" or "then", which may be yet another dental not pertinent to this discussion).

तà¥ÂÂ

[vasanthakokilam]

Uday, that claries things for me.

>(this "th" is different from the one in say, "them" or "then", which may be yet another dental not pertinent to this discussion).

Yes, I actually leant that difference. A high school english teacher here pointed that out in my speech long time back, the 'vibarating' sound that is needed for 'them' and 'then'. Even now, if I am not consciously making an effort, I fall back to not vibrating it. ( and she was the one who alerted me that I am mixing up the 'w' and 'v' sounds which I later found out is a common problem among Indians ).

While we are on this topic, just for fun, pay close attention to how Indians say words like 'echo'. It is somewhere between the right way and 'yucko'. Subtle but noticable.

[srkris]

The difficulties are compounded as English is not a phonetic language, and most Indian languages are.

Velar consonants - क ख à¤â€â€

[mohan]

A couple of my pet peeves:

mrudangamist - I guess this has come from English words like violinist, flautist but I think 'mrudangam artist' would be better

People writing 'loose' when they really mean 'lose'

[vasanthakokilam]

srkris: I am not sure if the problem is necessarily phonetic vs non-phonetic.

As Uday wrote, the Dental sounds that devanagari represents is not the same dental sound that English uses. The tip of the tongue is in different places producing totally different sounds.
So calling both of them Dental without qualification is not accurate.

So it comes down to this. Given a choice between retroflex ट, Dental त , the retroflex sound is a closer approximation for 'try'. I agree it is easy to teach the English Dental t sound to someone but asking someone to say it as तry is going to teach the wrong sound. Do you agree?

BTW, the devanagari dental न, atleast the way I say it, the tip of the tongue is in the same place as the English 'n' , it is only the rest of the dental sounds where Devanagari and English are different.

A question. Why are the first four in that Dental group - त थ द ध - called just Dental without further qualifications? Isn't there another sub-family of Dental for those sounds where the tip of the tongue is in between the teeth or touching the teeth proper as opposed to the gum line. I think that is what Bilahari was referring to. That would have resolved this issue to some extent.

[vganesh]

Every Tuesday "The Hindu" used give an artcile ..Know your English. This was written by one Prof.Subrahmanyam from Central Institute ..... of Languages, Hyderabad. Now the same is being published in internet under "KYE". Very intersting. The addition of words and deriving new words very common and I felt english became rich (Nick may not agree ) because of this. Smog, Brunch... Hence Mrudangist should be better than Mrudangamist.

[vidya]

Not necessarily an English usage but the term Shadjamam with the meaningless and redundant additional am as opposed to just Shadjam is quite irksome! (it is so pervasive on the web and even appears in The Hindu)

[vasanthakokilam]

Along the same lines, is it madyamam or madyam?

[bilahari]

Isn't it madyamam?
Madyam I thought means middle.

[arasi]

Then pancam--don't they use it all in HMamam? I mean HM?
Imagine singing--vara lalita panca...m

[arasi]

Yes, mrudangam player sounds better. We don't say khanjira-ist, ghatamist or Nick the morsingist...

[bilahari]

This is a good thread to vent my frustrations from writing an essay this weekend. Take a look:
http://www.sendspace.com/file/yi0knq

With friends like these, who needs enemies?!

[uday_shankar]

Not necessarily an English usage but the term Shadjamam with the meaningless and redundant additional am as opposed to just Shadjam is quite irksome! (it is so pervasive on the web and even appears in The Hindu)

Why Hindu ? Go to the Carnatica website and you'll find even the great Smt. Sowmya saying it - that's how I got to think that "shadjamam" and "panchamam" was correct until somebody disabused me of that notion. I think I've stayed "mum" for long enough about it . It is indeed pervasive.

Perhaps there's a tendency among Tamilians to add an extra "am" to everything, even when the word ends with an "a". For example I've seen some folks refers to pallavi manipulations pratiloma and anuloma as anulomam and pratilomam. Totally redundant and erroneous, no ? One might even accidentally stretch it to the names of the various types of cancers like melanomam, sarcomam, squamous cell carcinomam, etc...

In fact, this kind of usage is a carcinomam that is very pervasive.

[vasanthakokilam]

Bilahari: Wordirukka bayamEn It also probably figures a C is a better grade than A !! Word is a key theological concept in Christianity and Word is trying to ruin you when you write about Anti-Christ.

Uday:

[sridhar_ranga]

Uday - I would like to be disabused of pancamam....Can you share more details please?

shadjam - I understand.

aulomam, pratilomam sounded normal to me till now - what's the issue with these?

Something on the lines of Uday's cancerum series already happened - though I suspect it is a deliberate takeoff on Tamilians Some years back there was a series of "quick gun murugan" ads with a lungi clad main charatcter - when murugan encounters another sharp shooter, he asks him "nee enna ** clinton ** eastwood-aa?"

[uday_shankar]

Uday - I would like to be disabused of pancamam....Can you share more details please?

shadjam - I understand.

aulomam, pratilomam sounded normal to me till now - what's the issue with these?

Something on the lines of Uday's cancerum series already happened - though I suspect it is a deliberate takeoff on Tamilians Some years back there was a series of "quick gun murugan" ads with a lungi clad main charatcter - when murugan encounters another sharp shooter, he asks him "nee enna ** clinton ** eastwood-aa?"

Sridhar,
You're right. I think panchamam is OK. As for the rest, in general I like to keep the "mum"mification to a mini(mum). Hence my preference for anuloma vs anulomam. But the latter's right too.

I drink a lot of green tea and it has a lot of antioxidants that fight carcinogenums . Hence my preferences.

[Nick H]

mridangist is fine by me

mridanga-mist sounds like a rather contrived title for a percussion CD*


Try? Thirty? apart from the fact that the tongue is "up there" I don't see much similarity between them at all! Except to the Irish, who harden that th sound to be closer to a t.

I think there is a whole range of English th sounds! thirty is subtly different to Thursday; doth is in the same department, but breathed only, and then is something else again!

Consider tent: two Ts there too, one voiced, one not (a bit like kryas!)




*Or perhaps a deodorant for a particularly vigorous mridangist!

[ragam-talam]

on panchamam, shadjam et al...
I believe the original Sanskrit words are panchamaH, shadjaH, etc. We in the south add the -m in place of the -aH, so we get panchamam, shadjam. Our Hindi-speaking friends tend to shorten these words, so they become pancham, shadj etc.
Similarly for madhyamam & others.

[rshankar]

r-t - I think you are correct - so, while the terminal 'am' is redundant in SaDjamam, it is OK with rishabham, gAndhAram, pancamam, madhyamam (not madyam or madyamam) etc...

[ragam-talam]

A better example to bring out the distinction between dental and retroflex would be 'TOM'
Brits would say tOm where 't' is as in 'pookutti' (used in fireworks - well, Tamilians tend to say pookutri, but this is the closest I could come up with)
while Indians tend to utter the 'T' as in paTTom (the tamil word for kite)

'But' and 'Try' are not good examples for this.

[ragam-talam]

madhyamam (not madyam or madyamam) etc...

Btw, madyam means liquor! Madhyam refers to centre.
But in Tamil both become one.
(I'm sure there's a joke in there )

[cmlover]

The 'aM' termination is the vibhakti pratyayam (case ending) which converts a noun into the neutre gender.
ShadjaH will be masculine whereas Shadjam will be neutre.
The swaras are referred to in the neutre gender whence they all have the 'aM' suffix...
The word ShadjaH means the musical note derived from the six bodily organs. There is no word called ShadjamaH ; but mistakenly in Tamil we add 'aM' to it and call it Shadajamam etc....

[vasanthakokilam]

Just to avoid any further confusion, can someone provide the right set of Sanskrit Solfa syllable names for swaras, please? Not people's preferences but the right ones.

[rshankar]

Btw, madyam means liquor! Madhyam refers to centre.
But in Tamil both become one.
(I'm sure there's a joke in there )

I guess that is how one gets drunk on music, huh? Through the mAdhyam of madyam - 'piyE bin Aj hamE caDhA hai nashA'?

[sureshvv]

on panchamam, shadjam et al...
I believe the original Sanskrit words are panchamaH, shadjaH, etc. We in the south add the -m in place of the -aH, so we get panchamam, shadjam. Our Hindi-speaking friends tend to shorten these words, so they become pancham, shadj etc.
Similarly for madhyamam & others.

Agree mostly. Also, native Telugu speakers add a "u" and native Kannada speakers add a "a" at the end. No need to raise eyebrows if any of these variants are used interchangeably.

However I don't think it is correct to term Sanskrit as the "original". As its name indicates Sanskrit is a synthesized language with an intent to unify and make precise previously existing concepts and ideas in Prakruth languages.

[sureshvv]

Just to avoid any further confusion, can someone provide the right set of Sanskrit Solfa syllable names for swaras, please? Not people's preferences but the right ones.

Ironically where language goes, people's preferences dictate what is right.

[cmlover]

niShAda ^RiShabha gAndhAra Shadja madhyama dhaivtAH |
pancamaH ca iti amI sapta tantrI kaNThaH utthitAH svarAH (amarakOsham)

you can add 'aM' termination to conver the names to neutre gender.

[vasanthakokilam]

Thanks CML. I could not have asked for a more precise answer.

[srkris]

I dont know about english using different dentals from sanskrit (devanagari). The classification of vowels and consonants in modern linguistics was copied from sanskrit's system lock stock and barrel since it was considered the most scientific system available yet.

When we say dental therefore, we mean the exact same sounds as have been called dantya in sanskrit for the last 2.5 millenia.

But English is a confusing language, it is not a pure germanic language, it has heavy norse, celtic, latin, greek besides having international varieties, so I am not sure what is right.

If we however consider the purest form of english, it should (at least theoretically) not include retroflexes..

That most european languages are not phonetic languages (phonetic means each syllable represents just one phoneme in all situations) is definitely a cause for confusion. For example, in the word circle, the two c's represent two different sounds. This cannot happen in a phonetic language like tamil or kannada or sanskrit.

[ragam-talam]

If we however consider the purest form of english, it should (at least theoretically) not include retroflexes..

Can't agree with this at all.
Take the word 'button' as an example. Even a BBC announcer wouldn't pronounce this with a dental, it tends more towards retroflex.
And English doesn't have the त sound as it appears in Indian languages. Words such as 'this', 'the', 'think' all use sounds that don't exist in our languages. These are referred to as fricatives.

[vasanthakokilam]

srkris: I understand the issues with non-phonetic langugages. I am saying the confusion with the two different dental sounds is not due to that. Anyway, it does not matter for this discussion.

>If we however consider the purest form of english, it should (at least theoretically) not include retroflexes..

No problem. Agreed.

>When we say dental therefore, we mean the exact same sounds as have been called dantya in sanskrit for the last 2.5 millenia.

That is where the problem is. You claim that 'try' should be said as 'तà¥ÂÂ

[vasanthakokilam]

Here is the classification for English consonants: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_phonology

Our much debated English 't' is not dental but Alvealor. ( bilahari suspected alvealor early on ). Alvealor is when the tip of the tongue touches the alvealor ridge above the top row of teeth. Dental is when the tip of the tongue touches the teeth or in between the teeth. त is dental alright but there is no straight english equivalent.

The English dentals are the ones Uday and I exchanged above. "thin" and "then". They are fricatives because of the little vibrating sound ( turbulent airflow ) they make. I know Indians in general are not taught properly the fricative aspects of these English fricative-dentals, most indians say it the dental-plosive way with a hint of fricative.

So, in summary, there is no pure dental-plosives in English that is an equivalent of our त . The closest seems to be the Spanish tomate. There are no retroflex sounds in English ( which was srkris's original point )