An interesting article on "Thyagarajar and Dikshithar"

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 28 Apr 2009, 10:10

Yes
ksrimech has cited it in #42

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 28 Apr 2009, 10:21

Till yesterday when VK-CML had their opinions it was more like seeing the hollywood movie "A few good men", now I see the tilt is towards TomCruise and not towards Jack Nicholson.

While we may have few musicologists giving quite a few references towards MD-T meetings , Just recollecting and extrapolating one incident of ThyagarAja swami to tilt it towards cmlover again .

I heard sometime before that thyagarAja towards the last few years of his life (in his giripai sahana days), was notating all the krithis with his 5 star disciples (like manambuchAvadi, wvb,etal...), he was very particular about drawing groups of sishyas and dividing his krithis so that the respective sishya only practices that small subset of T's krithis in the notated palm leaf. By that act he has produced extra ordinary stickiness to the generation of musicians even till today, infact that one act has made CM sustaining even till now. Ofcourse in today's parlance we can call ThyagarAja's act as a knowledge management guru if you are in Vk's camp.

But I being in carnaticmusiclover's camp seeing the act of just asking his sishyAs only to sing that krithis does it not qualify to be called ThyagarAja as say

Very oppurtunistic vaggeyakkAra who had an interest for his krithis only to be sung. This oppurtunistic behaviour is not as bad as today's musicians who have an enimity towards other musicians , but certainly there was a tinge of opportunism of ThyagarAja that one cannot discount.

I just wish vgovindan to join in here!!.

p.s if some one can trace the above anecdote , it is somewhere in this forum jungle ,it would help immensely.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 28 Apr 2009, 10:47

<parody on>

CMLover, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by shishyas with palm leaves. Whose gonna do it? You? You, CM Lover? You weep for other vaggeyakaras. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what they know. That act of grouping krithis, while opportunistic, probably saved those songs. And that existence, while incomprehensible to you, saves the lives of many musicians. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you dont talk about at sabhas, you don't want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. We have neither the time nor the inclination to explain ourselves to people who thrive under the blanket of the very kutcheries that are made possible, then question the manner in which that was provided. We prefer you said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a pen and start composing. You want answers, you want the truth, you can't handle the truth!

<parody off>

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 28 Apr 2009, 12:28

vasanthakokilam wrote:CMLover, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by Shishyas with palm leaves. Whose gonna do it? You? You, CM Lover? You weep for other vaggeyakaras. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what they know. That act of grouping krithis, while opportunistic, probably saved those songs. And that existence, while incomprehensible to you, saves the lives of many musicians. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you dont talk about at sabhas, you don't want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. We have neither the time nor the inclination to explain ourselves to people who thrive under the blanket of the very kutcheries that are made possible, then question the manner in which that was provided. We prefer you said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a pen and start composing. You want answers, you want the truth, you can't handle the truth!

VK
Just brilliant you cruised wonderfully , I will wait for Jack of all trades to give a reply.

cml,
I hope you and all others got the connection of VK's post with the movie classic "A few good men". BTW there is a small flaw in the logic,
Vk only wants to know the truth, only you can say "you can't handle the truth" , vk cannot say that line is (y)our team's punch line.

p.s: million apologies for posting this post, I felt there is a chance someone could interpret VK's post is little arrogant which is not the case as always and take this thread focus elsewhere.

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 28 Apr 2009, 14:43

cmlover wrote:We also have 'Logic' with a well-developed frontal lobe which the animals lack.

Really?

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 28 Apr 2009, 15:14

rajeshnat wrote: Just brilliant you cruised wonderfully , I will wait for Jack of all trades to give a reply.

Other way around Rajesh. He just finished channeling Jack. Now we have to wait for the cruise.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 28 Apr 2009, 19:25

hmm... so T ordered the code red. Is nothing sacred to you children here?

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 28 Apr 2009, 20:31

The TRUTH can be dirty! Yea! Even ugly. But then do you want to know the truth! Why not revel in the cool comfort of complacency than seek the corrupt corridors of comprehension. What is it worth? Why penetrate the bowels of the atoms and pierce the quarks and sub quarks and even the filaments that make up matter only to find that there is nothing there? And thus to prove that there is nothing called Deity hiding in those concealed shelters - to shatter the age-old complacent faiths of millions. Yes the TRUTH can be ugly. But we still seek it, Why? That is called the indomitable Human Spirit. You can't rationalize that!

Why should we know whether T and MD met or not? The earth is not going to stop spinning or CM lose its melodic appeal! The Orthodox may even forbid us from lifting that fig-leaf lest we expose the ugly. Quit? certainly not! Because that is the indomitable Human Spirit. You can't rationalize that!

What if we found that both T and MD were one and the same? Through 'Divine Magic' (which many would gladly accept

) one was masquerading as the other just wiping his puNDraM (nAmam) and donning the tiryak puNDraM (vibhuti). That will account for their not meeting each other in public at all! That will account for their astounding Musical Genius! The answer is advaita

But then what is that 'Divine Magic'? The quest continues

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 28 Apr 2009, 21:05

We on the sidelines wait in suspense while the issue enters various zones--now veering towards fantasy fiction?

Rajesh,
Your interpretations add spice (like 'kUttilE kOmALi'--the comic relief).

A note for newcomers: you come across certain other threads where arguments occur. They are sometimes puny, prejudiced , provoking and they are trivial pursuits, mostly.

This spar between the titans is different.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 28 Apr 2009, 21:28

Very good CML. Yes Arasi, flights of fantasy, thanks to Rajesh.

For those who are not familiar with the movie A Few Good Men, the above was a humorous parody of an intense and famous dialog from that movie. Absolutely nothing to do with CML or the T-MD discussion. Just a comedic interlude.

I had to restrain myself from adding any smileys to my post since that will just take away the effect I was going after. It is so way over the top, it does not need any smileys. I can see the discomfort Rajesh felt that others may take it as suprememly arrogant if taken seriously.

Anyway, it is all in fun and credit goes to Rajesh for the timely reference. That movie dialog is a classic dharma yuddham, and reminds me of many stories inside Mahabharatha.

Now back to T and MD....

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 28 Apr 2009, 21:38

Read 'Anu gIta' in the ashvamedha parva of mahabharata for an esoteric insight!

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 28 Apr 2009, 21:50

vasanthakokilam wrote:Thanks Vidya.

Let me collect the links to these pairs of songs, so we can listen back to back.

ananta-bAlakRSNa (MD) : http://www.sangeethamshare.org/sunil/gu ... -Shiva.mp3
dinamani vamsa (T): http://sangeethapriya.org/tributes/thya ... i--MLV.mp3

Sri Guruguha (MD): http://www.sangeethamshare.org/sunil/gu ... M--DKP.mp3
kAlaharanam (T): http://sangeethapriya.org/tributes/thya ... a--DKP.mp3

kSitijAramaNam (MD): http://www.sangeethamshare.org/sunil/gu ... i--DKJ.mp3
KshErasAgara (T): http://sangeethapriya.org/tributes/thya ... akshmi.mp3

Of these, only ananta-bAlakRShna and dinamani vamSa seem to have the same meTTu. The other two pairs are not so identical - isn't it?

In addition to these there is another pair - gaNa nAyakam and SrI mAnini ( pUrNashaDja) - but that could be a latter day interpolation.

-Ramakriya

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 28 Apr 2009, 23:06

ksrimech wrote:
sridhar_rang wrote:Wasn't there another thread that mentioned that Purandara as referred here might not necessarily be Purandara dasa, the word Purandara having other meanings (including brahmA) etc.?
You are correct. But that discussion was not for this context. It was for the purandara shabdam in one of the charaNas in kanakanaruchirA (varALi). There it means only devEndran (not brahmA). In this context it refers only to purandaradAsaru. This is because of the list of parama bhAgavathAs of SrIkRSNa bhakti, tyAgarAjasvAmi is putting forward.

CML - was reading your from endarO (post #24). You have left out the first set of words - parama bhAgavatha mouni vara.......I don't know whether it is helping this T20 match going on here. I'm reminded of a saying from the SrIvaiSNava parlance - "chandattilE irundadu chandaslE illai". That is why he collectively called them parama bhAgavatha and mouni vara. Does that imply he is not paying his respects to to parASarA, vyAsA and sukhA?

There is one more kriti of tyAgarajA on SaNmukA, nivaNTi deivamu (tODi): http://www.karnatik.com/c2673.shtml.

AFAIK, the Purandara mentioned in Prahlada Bhakti Vijaya is Purandara Dasa.

Purandara in other sense would be dEVendra.

koyaliya · Post by **koyaliya** » 28 Apr 2009, 23:44

arasi wrote: A note for newcomers: you come across certain other threads where arguments occur. They are sometimes puny, prejudiced , provoking and they are trivial pursuits, mostly.

This spar between the titans is different.

As a newcomer, i can definitely comprehend that the discussion in this thread is not a pointless argument.

rather, i've read a few times over now and there seems to be more to understand each time i read it.

That said, re: the following from the initial article, i have an off-topic question that i am hoping someone can answer:
"With the exception of Jayadeva, there has been no Sanskrit composer of standing, either before or after Dikshitar."

i am wondering why narayana theertha is not considered here. and were there really no other sanskrit composers of standing? that seems inconceivable, although i can't think of any others...

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 29 Apr 2009, 02:23

kOyaliyA,
My note was meant for those newcomers who take music very seriously (many members do, but are not always thinking of it as a topic for a thesis. They express themselves as rasikAs first). Again, it does not mean they do not know much! Some are scholars and experts and exponents of CM here. In a word, I did not want the arguments to be dluted by posts by those who assume that this is discord of a kind one should try to halt. Once in a while this drama happens: CML and VK carrying on a major conversation, keeping us all in a state of'what comes next. That's what I meant...

srinivasrgvn · Post by **srinivasrgvn** » 29 Apr 2009, 07:55

koyaliya wrote: i am wondering why narayana theertha is not considered here. and were there really no other sanskrit composers of standing? that seems inconceivable, although i can't think of any others...

Yes, Narayana Theerthar was a very knowledgeable composer. He was a scholar, from what old archives tell us. His sanskrit is also very deep, expressing very scholarly thoughts(in some songs) that can be understood only by people who know the Vedas and Upanishads.
He wrote songs with these type of deep meanings as well as normal songs which many can understand like "Ehi Mudam Dehi".
I think his beautiful words were lost because of the dropping of various charanams. His songs usually tend to have 4 or 5 charanams in the same tune. So, artistes drop the charanams. Maybe, because of all the charanams being in the same tune, they were lost and people couldn't understand this great composer. Although we still have the notations, lyrics,translations etc. of his work "Krishna Leela Tarangini", not many people tend to teach/learn Narayana Theerthar compositions due to the above factor.

This is almost similar to Annamayya's kritis but because of the painstaking efforts that were/are taken by popular artistes like Smt.M.S. , Priya Sisters, etc. these kritis are still being sung worldwide with a lot of fame. But there were/are no popular artistes who popularize Narayana Theerthar songs. In those days, MLV and today, Sudha maybe. Even she is not singing that many NT songs these days. Artistes need to popularize these wonderful songs. There may be some who do so but the number should increase.

mahesh_narayan · Post by **mahesh_narayan** » 29 Apr 2009, 11:56

Ramakriya Sir,
One more pair of songs would be akshayalingavibhO (MD) and manasuswAdhInamai (T) (Shankarabharanam).

srinivasrgvn · Post by **srinivasrgvn** » 30 Apr 2009, 08:36

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 30 Apr 2009, 08:50

Your smiley says you were far from being sorry

It was fun while it lasted. Those two are engaging when they take up the cudgels!

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 30 Apr 2009, 22:57

The first round is over! Seventeen more to go

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 01 May 2009, 03:37

It is only fair for me to point out that this 1st day 20-20 is a side effect. CML's original point was something else. He was putting forth his hypothesis/opinion on one of the items in the RRI article, namely if MD used T's tunes to pay homage to T or vice-versa or if they both derived from a common source. (Somehow that ICL game turned in to an IPL game

)