Applause

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 14 Jul 2009, 03:48

Well not quite. From my point of view, put thalam softly, you can say 'chu chu chu' without disturbing others too much and applaud as loudly as you like at the end of the song. That is not too bad.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 14 Jul 2009, 04:24

Vallaki,
If you think our Cool is not cool, who else is?
He is hot too, in the sense of being 'with it', see--
As for some of us from the fifties and earlier times--
(Oh my gosh!) You say we are stoic, stiff necked?
Sorry, that's not us

We are cool too, and how!

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 14 Jul 2009, 07:02

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 14 Jul 2009, 07:26

Stoic - I like the definition

Shivadasan · Post by **Shivadasan** » 14 Jul 2009, 07:41

I have also experienced what Swaapana says in post 36. In those days it was so. Audience were stingy about applauses and did not like musicians who resorted to gimmicks to gain appreciation. For the accompanists appreciation from the main performer was more valuable than from the audiences. Most of the earlier generation of main performers did not like the applauses for the accompanists and it is not unusual that the main performer stopped including the applause seeking accompanist in his troupe. Exceptions were there of course.

I would recount two unusual instances.

A South Indian musician well known for Hindustani music performances was rendering a Carnatic concert for a carnatic audience. Applause was common in those days. The whole concert went on with intensity and the audience were rooted to their seats ( even when the interval was on - the canteen manager cursed his stars !) . There was not a single clap till the end. Perhaps they were taken in by the intensely classical CM which they did not expect from a musician not connected with CM for many long years and forgot to clap.

A young student of a great guru was rendering a detailed exposition of raga Desh ( which was considered fit only for light classical and bhajans) in an annual festival of a big university. The audience consisted of eminent musicians, music teachers and students. The tabla accompanist was not famous either. He played only the thekha without any oranaments. The guru entered in between the concert and there was an awe among the audience. Whole of Vilambit was over and there was not a single applause even for brilliant boltan, tihai etc. Disappointment was written all over the face of the artist. What was the use of casting pearls before swine was the thought of the student. When the Teen tal started the tablist played a very simple Uthan ( only two rounds of the tala) without any special ornaments or layakari. But the whole house exploded with a thunderous applause !

Applause is a mystery !

visaalam · Post by **visaalam** » 14 Jul 2009, 08:55

coolkarni wrote:One of the worst albums , in this regard, is the Geneva Concert duet of L Sub-Bismillah.There is an applause every 3 minutes.

also, the applause and wah wah exclamations heard in this album are heavily biased towards Bismillah

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 14 Jul 2009, 10:20

Shivadasan,
Both instances turn the gaze on ourselves, the rasikAs! The psyche (collective here?) is a mystery indeed!

Which is better (or worse)? To clap indiscriminately or not at all?

srinivasrgvn · Post by **srinivasrgvn** » 14 Jul 2009, 12:24

ragam-talam wrote:What is this - people cannot put talam, should not say 'chu chu chu', and should not even clap/applaud!

Hope we are not converting a CM concert into a dirge!

'chu-chu-chu' is voluntary, ragam-talam. Rasikas never make such sounds willingly. It just comes to them, when they hear an excellent phrase. They just can't stop doing it. But, it is possible to control it. Excessive 'chu-chu' ing is very disturbing, of course. But, one that comes once in a while is okay! If you go to concerts of Smt.R.Vedavalli, or Sri Nedunuri, you will surely hear it once in 2 minutes! Rasikas are helpless! =)

Sam Swaminathan · Post by **Sam Swaminathan** » 14 Jul 2009, 12:40

I am always bemused by the "schu schu", said very mildly, with a head shake starting from left to right, twice. I have always wondered whether the rasika is saying " no, you should not have done that" or "oh, ippadiym padalamo"?

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 14 Jul 2009, 14:37

'chu-chu-chu' is voluntary, ragam-talam. Rasikas never make such sounds willingly.

Did you mean involuntary above?
And are you saying clapping is voluntary?

There seems to be this holier-than-thou attitude prevailing here. What's the harm with a bit of applauding? Or do you want there to be total silence when the artiste reaches a crescendo? Some artistes (NRI ones?) may not like the clapping, but I am sure vast numbers do.

Let's not convert our CM concerts into - god forbid! - those stiff-upper-lip western classical concerts. All you can hear in these concerts is people trying to control their coughs, then several of them coughing in unison!

CM concerts were originally held mostly in temples, with all the attendant noise and aarti etc. Let's not mellow it down to such a boring level that even putting thalam is frowned upon.

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 14 Jul 2009, 14:39

Listen to some of the concerts from years ago. You can hear rasikas almost joining in - making appreciative remarks, putting thalam loudly, and yes, even applauding.

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 14 Jul 2009, 14:43

Let's not convert our CM concerts into - god forbid! - those stiff-upper-lip western classical concerts. All you can hear in these concerts is people trying to control their coughs, then several of them coughing in unison!

So we don't get to hear any music at all?

Shivadasan · Post by **Shivadasan** » 14 Jul 2009, 15:17

Another mystery.

I think it was Music Academy in R.S.Sabha.
For many days the concerts were dull and drab. Not a single clap even at the end of the concert, even to Semmangudi.
I think, next day, in Mayavaram Rajam's concert the audience were so enthusiastic that the clapped for each and every song. Such a thing had never happened in the Academy

Shivadasan

Svaapana · Post by **Svaapana** » 14 Jul 2009, 18:37

Audience don't hand clap (or even schu schu!) at the navarathri mandapam concerts in TVM. Pray why?

vallaki · Post by **vallaki** » 14 Jul 2009, 19:34

coolkarni wrote:vallaki
You were right in calling me a stoic, from a philosophical perspective.
I do hold Marcus Aurelius, one of the more famous Stoics , in high regard.His words (through his book Meditations) has given me more solace than any other .
Wikipedia entry for Stoic.
The stoics considered destructive emotions to be the result of errors in judgment, and that a sage, or person of "moral and intellectual perfection," would not undergo such emotions.[1]

Stoics were concerned with the active relationship between cosmic determinism and human freedom, and the belief that it is virtuous to maintain a will that is in accord with nature. Because of this, the Stoics presented their philosophy as a way of life, and they thought that the best indication of an individual's philosophy was not what a person said but how he or she behaved.[2]

Later Roman Stoics, such as Seneca and Epictetus, emphasized that because "virtue is sufficient for happiness," a sage was immune to misfortune. This belief is similar to the meaning of the phrase 'stoic calm', though the phrase does not include the "radical ethical" Stoic views that only a sage can be considered truly free, and that all moral corruptions are equally vicious.

Dear Mr.Coolkarni ,

Ab yeh discussion ko cool karne ka hai !!!!

I did mean 'stoic' with all good intent, Please do not take any offence .
It is very cool , if you like Marcus Aurelius.

ALL - I do hold Mr.Coolkarni in high regards... My stoic comment was just innocently put, with no offence meant at all to any body. I withdraw it, in case any of you are offended..

Sorry, if I caused some trouble..
Regards,
Vallaki

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 14 Jul 2009, 20:51

Some trouble, more trouble does not mean anything to the stoic

svaapana,
The same as when you do not applaud after a national anthem or for the singing or the playing of music in a church, I think.

Is the appreciative rasikA response 'tso tso tso' or chu chu chu? I don't think either fully convey the sound as it really is!

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 14 Jul 2009, 21:47

ragam-talam wrote:There seems to be this holier-than-thou attitude prevailing here. What's the harm with a bit of applauding? Or do you want there to be total silence when the artiste reaches a crescendo? Some artistes (NRI ones?) may not like the clapping, but I am sure vast numbers do.

Yes, people do it because they like it --- among other reasons. I still maintain that there are occasions on which it can and does destroy a wonderful atmosphere that has been built up by the performance. These occasions are rare, as such performances are. On most occasions, in most concerts, clapping is not out of place or objectionable. Still, it is interesting to introspect, and also to consider the changing ways or fashions.

Let's not convert our CM concerts into - god forbid! - those stiff-upper-lip western classical concerts. All you can hear in these concerts is people trying to control their coughs, then several of them coughing in unison!

That is not required!

CM concerts were originally held mostly in temples, with all the attendant noise and aarti etc. Let's not mellow it down to such a boring level that even putting thalam is frowned upon.

Let's not turn this into another thread on putting talam!

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 15 Jul 2009, 02:03

In western concerts, does not the audience join the singer and raise their both hands and clap to a certain rythm? Obviously, the singer encourages the audience to participate in the song. If so, is that not tAlam?

srinivasrgvn · Post by **srinivasrgvn** » 15 Jul 2009, 06:11

ragam-talam wrote:
'chu-chu-chu' is voluntary, ragam-talam. Rasikas never make such sounds willingly.
Did you mean involuntary above?
And are you saying clapping is voluntary?

There seems to be this holier-than-thou attitude prevailing here. What's the harm with a bit of applauding? Or do you want there to be total silence when the artiste reaches a crescendo? Some artistes (NRI ones?) may not like the clapping, but I am sure vast numbers do.

Let's not convert our CM concerts into - god forbid! - those stiff-upper-lip western classical concerts. All you can hear in these concerts is people trying to control their coughs, then several of them coughing in unison!

CM concerts were originally held mostly in temples, with all the attendant noise and aarti etc. Let's not mellow it down to such a boring level that even putting thalam is frowned upon.

ragam talam,
I am never against clapping. I just wanted to say that making such sounds are not wrong! If you made a bit of pre-reading, you will notice that I wrote:

Applause is spontaneous nowadays, I suppose. The body has tuned itself to applaud in all these occasions. The hands just come together on their own if the mind experiences bliss! I don't think clapping is wrong, but there has to be some criteria for clapping. I don't subscribe to clapping in all the 12 occasions mentioned but in a few, I think clapping is essential. I mean, how else can we show the artiste that we like their music? No time for us nor them to meet after the concert. Half of them don't have e mail IDS, websites. The telephone isn't a good way of communication for trivial things. Applause is the only way of praising the performers. Excessive clapping is irrational, of course. But, deserving pieces need good applause.

We all are in the same party. I am not in the opposition! =)

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 15 Jul 2009, 11:36

VK RAMAN wrote:In western concerts, does not the audience join the singer and raise their both hands and clap to a certain rythm? Obviously, the singer encourages the audience to participate in the song. If so, is that not tAlam?

Not often, no... only at those times when artists think that audiences need warming up a bit. It's a cheap trick really, and always seems so to me. What's more, the joint sense of timing is such that one does not get claps, but a cascade of noise --- even worse than a CM audience noisily putting talam.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 16 Jul 2009, 21:12

Sundara Rajan wrote:It is customary in Western Classical programs for the audience to clap at the end of each item. Some NRIs who returned to India in the late sixties or early seventies must have started to follow this custom.

Thinking about this NRI theory, how come hundreds of years of Westerners ( British, French, Portugese etc. ) ruling India could not pass on that clapping practise to us but somehow a few hundred or thousands of Indians going aboard 'brought back' that practice? It is only reasonable to think that many more Indians attended Western Classical Music programs in the various major cities in India during the western rule.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 16 Jul 2009, 21:14

Probably because the 'dorais' and the 'darkies' were never present at the same concert venue!

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 17 Jul 2009, 02:22

It is only reasonable to think that many more Indians attended Western Classical Music programs in the various major cities in India during the western rule.

On the evidence of the number of westerners following ICM now, I'd say that it is reasonable to think that then, as now, it was largely ignored except by an enthusiastic minority.

I'm guessing, of course.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 17 Jul 2009, 05:10

Nick: I am referring to Indians attending Western Classical Music in their own backyard during colonial rule.

Ravi: There is definitely some truth to the point you are making, but read on...

Remember, NRIs in the sixties were not that many, CM rasikas in that set is even smaller and even further smaller is those rasikas who attended WCM. So the set of people in question is rather small.

I think more CM aficionados would have had exposure to WCM in Chennai, Tanjore, Mysore, Tranvancore ( for example ) etc.. Remember, Mysore Maharajas hosted all sorts of music in their palaces including quite a few Western Classical Music concerts for mixed audiences and the number of Indians in that crowd in one year would have handily beaten this early NRI crowd. The same was true in Tanjore.

Having said that, Indians always clapped in appreciation for singers and actors in dramas as the screen came down.( I am going by movie scenes ) So clapping itself is not foreign to us but for some reason it was not present in carnatic music. It may just be like anything else. It just happened. How did Bell Bottoms happened and why did it go away? How such things develop and spread around is a fascinating topic in itself.

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 17 Jul 2009, 06:57

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 17 Jul 2009, 07:10

VKokilam,
A few NRIs in the sixties listened to a concert, mostly in a basement. A true chamber concert where the handful of CM-literate rasikAs and a few roped-in south indians who had no exposure to CMwere there. They came because we were from the same part of a far off land. Most of the organizers were prime rasikAs, like our VKV. An odd student or two drifted in too, for a home cooked meal--there were no indian restaurants around No temples. Some of us cooked a dish or two and brought them in. No stage, not frequent clapping either, if I remember...

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 17 Jul 2009, 15:12

vasanthakokilam wrote:Nick: I am referring to Indians attending Western Classical Music in their own backyard during colonial rule.

So was I, but through the eyes of the present day.

Perhaps my view has been formed from too-few works of fiction, but my understanding is that, apart from those that adopted, studied, loved, married, etc, into India, and more in he earlier days of colonial rule, my ancestors were a pretty stand-offish, snooty, snobby lot, more interested in maintaining the traditions of their dinner dress than appreciating the culture they were living off.

bhavarasa · Post by **bhavarasa** » 07 Jan 2010, 01:53

I think we should applaud when the artist(s) is punctual and starts the concert at the advertised time and boo if they don't.

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 07 Jan 2010, 02:20

bhavarasa wrote:I think we should applaud when the artist(s) is punctual and starts the concert at the advertised time and boo if they don't.

It is their duty to be on time to start the concert; and it is applicable to the audience too. Booing does not help in creating an atmosphere conducive to concert.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 07 Jan 2010, 13:29

... indeed. I guess one could wave at the stage, point at your watch and make disapproving face.

I think that the best way to express disaproval is to walk out, but telling the Sabha official why you are doing so. Perhaps unfortunately, most of us never actually do express our dissatisfaction in the hall: we save it for the internet!

As to starting a little late, I have to confess that it often means that I didn't miss the start! <blush>. The majority of concerts that I attend do start on time, and there is much more to complain about in the audience's behaviour than anything on-stage.

sivapriya · Post by **sivapriya** » 08 Jan 2010, 23:12

According to me a "chu chu" or an "ahaa", are something that comes from an extremely emotive frame of reference and a pure oneness with the artist on stage. This is so involuntary, when you can actually feel the creativity, beauty or the speciality of a phrase or a tala or any other musical dimension that the artist presents and totally empathise with his /her state of mind.

Yes, it may be disturbing ,maybe it can be done more subtly. But then are we " mummified bundles" sitting and viewing the concert with a dead look on the face? Art is all about life, joy, mirth and happiness and we may all have seen that the artist who presents his art with passion and joy alone can produce sustainable art.

As for the applause ,this is becoming more of a contrived nuisance both from the audience and the attention seeking artist on stage. Piled up neraval phrases, super loaded swara prastharas, holding onto a note for a long time , are some of the things that the audience will instantly clap, as though programmed.

Sometimes it might be a very simple thing and the audience here is ready to put their hands together, leaving even the artist bemused. But when the applause comes for something really befitting , then it is welcome and the artist also gets immensely enthused by it.

An applause that comes between the anupallavi and charanam, is the most irritating, as though the audience can't wait for the artist to finish!! It also spoils the trend of thought and feel of the concert.

I have also observed that the audience not clapping for an unknown newcomer or youngster on stage, even if he/ she is playing an excellently classical or weighty stuff. Whereas for a popular face young or old or senior, the applause comes in roaring fits even if fare was average ! It is as though you will be out of league if you didn't clap.
What is so wrong in applauding a youngster and encouraging him/her if its really good?

Applauses become "goshti gaanam" with everybody clapping in congregation for songs, like Kurai ondrum illai, Vishamakara kanna, Maadumeikkum kaaNa, Brhamamokatte !!!

Standing ovation in the portals of the Music Academy, is becoming something of a modern fashion and trend. One is not sure of the intent. It could be that the audience could even be stretching their tight muscles, before taking the next step. !!!

If it were really truly extended, well and good, but again if it is done customarily like standing in attention for the National Anthem, then it becomes meaningless.

It may not be too late, before some award is instituted for the " best applauding rasika" or the " best applauded concert" !!!!

Sivaramakrishnan · Post by **Sivaramakrishnan** » 10 Jan 2010, 17:03

I recommend music lovers to attend concerts at the Trivandrum Navaratri Mandapam during the annual series.

all the front rankers have been singing there for the past several decades.

Applause banned. Some great music we have listened there despite this.

clapping is not essential.