What are you learning now ?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 26 Aug 2009, 04:01

Thanks Aishu. Yes, you have answered my question. I have some follow ups...

- From what I observed with these kids ( they were playing Mozart, Bach, Schumann etc. ), it was mostly plain notes but with occasional short vibrato, but the vibrato on the longer notes seem to be on the key. Is that quite a common idiom? I am contrasting this with the discussion that in carnatic Sa and Pa on a long kArvai are not shaken much ( though not always so ).

- Which raga's vibrato type gamaka (kampita, oscillatiory ) comes closest to the western use of vibrato in character? Do the kampita on Ni in Shankarabaranam come close to it? Any other common examples?

- Is there a difference in technique in the vibrato between western and carnatic? I can see atleast two ways of doin this. One is moving the finger back and forth on the string ( the kids were doing this for the most part ) and the second is rolling the tips of two fingers as a unit back and forth without actually moving either finger and with only one finger tip touching the string at a time.

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 26 Aug 2009, 06:49

Aishu,

is this vibrato what we call increasing and decreasing the finger's pressure on the string while playing a long note?

If it is, I would consider it a kind of jantai, very fast jantai. Though the usual technique to play a jantai is different, for very rapid jantai it's an option. Jantais like this come in Prasanna Venkataraman's singing.

I find an excessive use of vibrato very over-expressive in CM.

appu · Post by **appu** » 26 Aug 2009, 08:10

Srikant1987

Please explain jantai. I am not sure I am familiar with this term. Is it the same as in Janta varisai or sarali varasai.

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 26 Aug 2009, 09:02

By jantai I just mean ss, rr, ggg, mmmmmm, etc.

srinivasrgvn · Post by **srinivasrgvn** » 27 Aug 2009, 07:14

Here it is:
"Sri Kanthimathim" by the genius Maharajapuram Sri Santhanam:
http://www.sendspace.com/file/gtwz90

CarnaticMuse · Post by **CarnaticMuse** » 28 Aug 2009, 00:47

Ah, got it!

Thanks srinivasrgvn, this will help me resolve some issues I have been having in the charanam part...

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 28 Aug 2009, 06:52

I was in a bit of a somber and melancholic mood earlier today due to a variety of reasons. The power went out and that semi darkness actually fit my mood better. I started playing a bit and it fit my mood. I hit the record button on my cell phone and played whatever came to me without worrying about raga or thala. It resembles a song or two I had heard but not exactly. They were not in my mind consciously. It does sound sad. I thought I will share it: http://www.esnips.com/doc/cbb22258-73e4 ... 2ab/Sombre

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 28 Aug 2009, 08:36

Thanks VK for sharing. Never thought one can play what the mind pleases. Defintely I cannot map it to any raga- the starting has some resemblance to nAda tanumanisham.
Hope you feel better

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 28 Aug 2009, 09:01

V KOkilam,
Thanks for sharing. We will divvy up the angst and share it too, if you would let us.
Sad melodies may sound sad, but they make both the player and the listeners feel better. Your 'free association' tune is a bit haunting but is sweet sounding.
Not that it matters, but I heard shades of kharaharapriya almost through the piece, sAramati here and there in the beginning, a bit of sindhu bhairavi a folksy tune, and kAvaDic cindu too.
There! I am feeling better already. How about you?

rajesh_rs · Post by **rajesh_rs** » 29 Aug 2009, 18:54

vasanthakokilam wrote:I was in a bit of a somber and melancholic mood earlier today due to a variety of reasons. The power went out and that semi darkness actually fit my mood better. I started playing a bit and it fit my mood. I hit the record button on my cell phone and played whatever came to me without worrying about raga or thala. It resembles a song or two I had heard but not exactly. They were not in my mind consciously. It does sound sad. I thought I will share it: http://www.esnips.com/doc/cbb22258-73e4 ... 2ab/Sombre

Shades of Sri and then Kharaharapriya in the beginning. The use of D1 in places makes it sound like Saramati as Arasi says in her post. Nice!

rajesh_rs · Post by **rajesh_rs** » 29 Aug 2009, 18:58

All the talk of Revati in this thread made me post this: it is a Revati recording I made early this year. Pretty much freestyle and no set idea of what I wanted to accomplish - just went with the flow to explore the ragam.

http://www.box.net/shared/3uonugulse

There are a few imperfections. Please listen and comment.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 29 Aug 2009, 23:24

Thanks Suji, Arasi, rajesh. I sensed the same set of ragas you all felt when I listened to the recording. Arasi's mention of kavadi chinthu is interesting because a few hours before that I was listening to mAli's kavadi chinthu. Mali sounds totally different on the surface but there seems to be some sub-surface similarity. ( btw, I am doing fine. It was event driven soberness, so went away in due time. Thanks ).

One thing I recall while playing is, using both Ma's in sequence. The first time I went there, it sounded OK, in fact it augmented the general sombre mood. I went to that dual ma at least another time.

Rajesh: Your revathi is excellent. Good quality sound and the raga bhava is there consistently. Very nice!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 30 Aug 2009, 00:31

Upon further reflection about the two MAs, while G2 M1 M2 P sounds vivadhi'ish, P M1 M2 M1 G2 or G2 M1 M2 M1 G2 sounds normal to my ears.

Aishu · Post by **Aishu** » 30 Aug 2009, 04:53

vasanthakokilam wrote:Thanks Aishu. Yes, you have answered my question. I have some follow ups...

- From what I observed with these kids ( they were playing Mozart, Bach, Schumann etc. ), it was mostly plain notes but with occasional short vibrato, but the vibrato on the longer notes seem to be on the key. Is that quite a common idiom? I am contrasting this with the discussion that in carnatic Sa and Pa on a long kArvai are not shaken much ( though not always so )

Playing the vibrato is a technique that students of western music learn, just like how we learn the gamagas. When I first learnt the gamagam technique, it was in ragam Shankarabharanam. My teacher emphasized the slide prominently from Ga to Ma over and over again, When I asked him why we called it gamakams, he corrected me and said gamagam (slide from ga to ma and back to ga). The vibrato howeve is not entirely a carnatic music technique. It sounds great in ragam Shankarabharanam, Mohanam and quite a few other ragams. I enjoy it the most when I play a ragam like Chakravakam.

Aishu · Post by **Aishu** » 30 Aug 2009, 04:58

vasanthakokilam wrote: - Which raga's vibrato type gamaka (kampita, oscillatiory ) comes closest to the western use of vibrato in character? Do the kampita on Ni in Shankarabaranam come close to it? Any other common examples?

Playing the vibrato in ragams like Shankarabharanam, Hari Kambhoji, Bilahari, Katanakutuhalam, Mohanam make for more melodious playing. I enjoy playing it in a ragam like Chakravakam.

Aishu · Post by **Aishu** » 30 Aug 2009, 05:01

vasanthakokilam wrote: - Is there a difference in technique in the vibrato between western and carnatic? I can see atleast two ways of doin this. One is moving the finger back and forth on the string ( the kids were doing this for the most part ) and the second is rolling the tips of two fingers as a unit back and forth without actually moving either finger and with only one finger tip touching the string at a time.

Vibrato is not something I learned in Carnatic music. I started incorporating it when I heard my teacher do it and over the years I am slowly understanding how to use it well.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 30 Aug 2009, 05:55

Aishu, Got it. Thanks for the info.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 30 Aug 2009, 06:06

Aishu wrote: When I asked him why we called it gamakams, he corrected me and said gamagam (slide from ga to ma and back to ga).

gamaga may be correct in that particular context (ga - ma - ga), but I think the word still is gamaka!

vainika · Post by **vainika** » 30 Aug 2009, 10:38

When I asked him why we called it gamakams, he corrected me and said gamagam (slide from ga to ma and back to ga).

Oh, this bring backs nightmares of the small-time Bharatanatyam teacher who used to come to my grandparents' home in T Nagar to teach my niece some 25 years ago. She insisted on abhinaya showing flying birds in a gaNESha shlOka (phala-sAra pakshitam). Fortunately her tenure was short-lived.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 30 Aug 2009, 11:52

Ha.. can't sneak by with mispronounced lyrics in such occupations!

Let me help that dance teacher: The preceding 'Kapitha Jamboo' is the key. Ganesha who likes to eat the Kapitha fruit and not being able to finish it due to the Jumbo size, offers it to the birds!!

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 30 Aug 2009, 12:47

rajesh_rs wrote:All the talk of Revati in this thread made me post this: it is a Revati recording I made early this year. Pretty much freestyle and no set idea of what I wanted to accomplish - just went with the flow to explore the ragam.

http://www.box.net/shared/3uonugulse

There are a few imperfections. Please listen and comment.

Thanks for sharing. Sounds good!
I will post my revati in a few days

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 30 Aug 2009, 12:48

I was trying an alapana. If you guess this raga then I should be on track. This is an outcome of my dabbling. Will post the kriti later

http://www.esnips.com/doc/55ee6306-0b1e ... ba/alapana

Rasika911 · Post by **Rasika911** » 30 Aug 2009, 15:00

Suji Ram wrote:I was trying an alapana. If you guess this raga then I should be on track. This is an outcome of my dabbling. Will post the kriti later

http://www.esnips.com/doc/55ee6306-0b1e ... ba/alapana

Link is not working for me.

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 30 Aug 2009, 15:10

Nor for me.

girish_a · Post by **girish_a** » 30 Aug 2009, 16:45

Aishu wrote:VK,
This "shake" of the note that you are referring to is called the vibrato.

Vibrato = Kampita?

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 30 Aug 2009, 19:50

girish_a,

Try reading a few posts in between.

srinivasrgvn · Post by **srinivasrgvn** » 30 Aug 2009, 20:34

Yes, Suji. The link is not working. Please post another one.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 30 Aug 2009, 20:40

Here's the new link to my alapana dabbling. Guess which raga I was trying to play and what kriti would you think will follow this.
Feed back appreciated.
http://www.esnips.com/doc/61a1599c-c138 ... va-bhArama

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 30 Aug 2009, 20:52

Bahudari. sadAnanda ThAndavam? ( or brOva bAramA ) Nicely done, Suji.

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 30 Aug 2009, 21:04

bahudAri almost without doubt.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 31 Aug 2009, 05:47

Thanks VK and bilahari,
I have been listening to different bahudAri alapanas the last couple of days and was wondering if mine sounds bahudAri at all.
Now you both could recognize it. I played all the phrases just from learning brOva bhArama.
I am posting the alapana as well as the kriti in the link below
The video has lyrics and meaning flashing as you listen to it.
My kriti rendition has few sangatis which might be new (maybe from Andhra school?)

http://www.esnips.com/doc/61a1599c-c138 ... va-bhArama

This isn't my best though.
Dabbler

Thanks to V Govindan - lyrics and meaning

prashant · Post by **prashant** » 31 Aug 2009, 09:29

Currently learning: vINA pustaka dhAriNIm AshrayE - vEgavAhini - khaNDa Eka - dIkshitar.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 31 Aug 2009, 10:20

Suji: brOva bAramA sounds very good. Nice job. I like your synchronized video animation for lyrics and translation.

In the first sangathi, I like it when it is clean and crisp without any gamakas or anuswaras and yours is that way. Do you play it as 'pada ni pa, ma ga,,'.
Also, 'ma' of raghurama, that sounds just right. I usually do not pull it off to my satisfaction. What is your gamaka for 'ma'? Is it 'pa-ma pa-ma pa-ma' or 'pa-ga pa-ga pa-ga' or something else?

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 31 Aug 2009, 11:24

vasanthakokilam wrote:Suji: brOva bAramA sounds very good. Nice job. I like your synchronized video animation for lyrics and translation.

In the first sangathi, I like it when it is clean and crisp without any gamakas or anuswaras and yours is. Do you play it as 'pada ni pa, ma ga,,'.
Also, 'ma' of raghurama, that sounds just right. I usually do not pull it off to my satisfaction. What is your gamaka for 'ma'? Is it 'pa-ma pa-ma pa-ma' or 'pa-ga pa-ga pa-ga' or something else?

VK, Thanks for listening.
Yes, the first sangati is pada ni. I kind of give a double touch on ni- hence a small vibration (not gamaka). I played the first sangati for you at a slower pace in the link below.
http://www.esnips.com/doc/454870ce-b7e5 ... st-sangati

rAma -is pa, pa-ga pa-ga pa-ga. I move my fingers touching and keeping it stressed on all the notes in between pa and ga. I'm not sure how one plays on flute. There is Dr N Ramani's on spriya. we must check it out.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 31 Aug 2009, 12:33

Thanks Suji. I now hear that small vibration with the ni double touch as well as the oscillation for 'ma'. Nicely done.

On the flute it requires some extra technique, I think. The finger configurations change for ga-ma-pa, so smooth slide has to be done through other means like tilt and blow control. That is probably what Sri. Ramani does.

If I change the fingering with the lower 'pa' as 'sa', then I can make that gamaka sound close to yours but that is not a production configuration

rajesh_rs · Post by **rajesh_rs** » 31 Aug 2009, 13:50

Vasanthakokilam and Suji, thanks for your comments. Revati is a beautiful ragam and I will probably never grow tired of it. I haven't had a chance to listen to your recently posted pieces, but since Bahudari is one of my favourites, I am keen to. Will do in due course.

Also, I believe the word for the microtone (or slides, taps, for that matter) in Sanskrit is "gamakam" and not "gamagam". Correct me if I'm wrong.

ppraghu · Post by **ppraghu** » 31 Aug 2009, 15:58

Suji, Bahudhari has come very well. Congratulations.

Vasanthakokilam, correctly said - the Ma,,,,, is played with tilt. In flute, it will be like Pa Ma Pa Ma (the fully closed, inward-tilted Ma, very close to Ga).

(I have not played Bahudhari usually, but I tried to mimic Suji's playing in the flute - the "RaghurAmA" part)

Regards
Raghu

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 31 Aug 2009, 19:56

Suji,
Good job! Pleasing and smooth flowing. You keep the bhAvam intact.

srinivasrgvn · Post by **srinivasrgvn** » 01 Sep 2009, 07:32

CarnaticMuse · Post by **CarnaticMuse** » 03 Sep 2009, 02:15

Done with learning Sri Kantimatim, now I can enjoy playing it

. I have kept it as close to my aunt's rendition as I remember it. But Maharajapuram Santhanam's beautiful recording helped me fill in the gaps in my memory. Thanks again for the link.

I have posted a recording on to youtube and would be honored if you have the time to listen http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJru5i9wXC4. If you have any suggestions on how I can improve it, please let me know.

I am looking for a kriti in Shivaranjini (not a ragamalika) to learn next. A friend really loves this ragam and I would like to play it for her birthday next month. Any suggestions and pointers to swarasahityam would be most helpful.

Lakshman · Post by **Lakshman** » 03 Sep 2009, 02:59

Here are a few from which you can select what you want to try next. I can probably supply you with the required notation.

bhuvini dAsuDane-Tyagaraja
dayalEka bhratiki-Vasudevachar
dharma samvardhani-Lakshmi Krishna
eppaDi sahippEn-Periasami Tooran
garuDa vAhana-Rukmini Ramani
ini oru kaNam unai-Papanasham Shivan
kanavilum kamala-GNB
karmukhi vaNNan-Ambujam Krishna
karuNai puriya-Ambujam Krishna
manam irangi(pv)-Papanasham Shivan
mArubalka kona-Tyagaraja
mata maname-T.N.Bala
nannu brOvavamma-Indira Natesan
nI tAn mecikkoLLa-UttukaDu Venkatakavi
nI vara solla-Ashok R.Madhav
pAlaya mAm shrI-Venkataramana Bhagavatar
panri mukha kumarargaL-D.Pattammal
perumai koLvAi-K.S.Krishnamurti
sArasadaLa nayana-Patnam
sarasamanaiya-Mannargudi Sambashiva Iyer
shakti vinAyaka-Muttiah Bhagavatar
shivAnanda lahari-Lalitadasar
shrI dum durgE-Dikshitar
shrI rAmacandrO-Dikshitar
sogasugA mrdanga-Tyagaraja
tagumO muraiyO-K.Ramaraj
uLam ariyAda-Kotishvara Iyer

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 03 Sep 2009, 03:01

These are sriranjani not Shivaranjani Lakshman

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 04 Sep 2009, 08:24

Thanks Arun and CarnaticMuse.

C Muse, You can just type in the notations as SRGM....I can figure out if it is high or low from your recordings. I used online Sruti from karnatik.com. I really need the Sruti while playing violin or else I can easily hit a wrong note.

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 04 Sep 2009, 09:04

Suji, have you tried the Your Tanpura software? I've been using that for some time now and find it quite satisfactory...
http://www.yourtanpura.co.cc/

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 04 Sep 2009, 09:06

cmuse don't you use an tambura of some sort (eg electronic) while playing the veena? If not how do you assess if the strings are going out of tune?

srinivasrgvn · Post by **srinivasrgvn** » 04 Sep 2009, 09:12

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 04 Sep 2009, 19:59

very nice srinivasargvn!!

CarnaticMusic - I also liked your kantimathim - and as you yourself felt, the addition of tampura would complete the picture.

Arun

srinivasrgvn · Post by **srinivasrgvn** » 04 Sep 2009, 20:06

CarnaticMuse · Post by **CarnaticMuse** » 04 Sep 2009, 21:28

suji, mohan, arunk, thanks for taking the time to listen to Sri KAntimatim and letting me know you like it. Definitely feels good hearing positive feedback from fellow musicians.

Suji Ram wrote:Did you play Cittaswaram at the end? Can you share the notations for that?

Here it goes. I used pre and post dots to indicate the lower and higher octaves respectively.
.n, .d .p - .n .d .n .s - g r g p - , m g r | g m p, - m p n d | p s. n d - p m g r ||
g m p - d n s. - g. r. m. g. r. s. - n d r. s. | n d p m - g. r., s. | n d p m - g r s, ||

mohan wrote:matim is just played as dpmpd

Thanks, it fits in nicely with what I play, so I will use it in my third sangati, if you don't mind.

mohan wrote:cmuse don't you use an tambura of some sort (eg electronic) while playing the veena? If not how do you assess if the strings are going out of tune?

I just use my ear to tune the strings and detect if they are going out of tune. Has worked for me quite well. But the problem with my method is, that while the strings are tuned correctly relative to each other, the base sa can vary in frequency over sessions. You can actually see this on my youtube postings. While it's okay listening to the songs independently, it's odd when you listen them in sequence and now, somebody wants me to make a CD of these songs, so I really have to resolve this issue ASAP.

I checked out karnatik.com and yourtampura. yourtampura seems to be a windows exe, so can't use it on my mac. Plan to try out karnatik.com. Does anybody have suggestions on what file would be appropriate for the veena? I normally set it to a low shruti, so that I can play upto three notes on one fret.

srinivasrgvn wrote: Well, as you asked for it, I am uploading the recording wherein I've played the Brindavani Thillana of BMK. Hear it and please tell me. Experts, keep off! =)

http://www.sendspace.com/file/5k7ej3

Thanks for posting this srinivasrgvn, I liked your playing a lot. Brindavani seems like an energetic and happy ragam and the thillana sounds good on the veena.

Was still not sure about a thillana in Misra Shivaranjani on the veena. And then I found this thillana, not by Lalgudi Jayaraman, but Maharajapuram Santhanam http://www.stumbleaudio.com/#gaayathri7/11. There is a lot of continuity playing in the beginning and the individual notes come in later on in this thillana, so I like it a lot. And it will be pretty cool learning it right off a veena rendition. Wish me luck!

srinivasrgvn wrote:Experts, keep off! =)

I know what you mean. But I have been thinking it would be nice if we have a place on the forum, where we can get frank expert comments. Would help accelerate our progress (I guess I am the kind that needs the whip

).

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 04 Sep 2009, 21:59

Thanks cmuse for the notations.
I was listening to Lalgudi Jayaram's hEmavati and he plays a cittaswaram too, I think -first in slow speed and then in second speed followed by swaraprastara for Sri kAntimatim.

I am going to try with your cittaswaram which will complete my Sri kAntimatim..