Bharat Sangeet Utsav 2009: Concerts to be seen at

Review the latest concerts you have listened to.
cienu
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Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 11:40

Post by cienu »

cmlover wrote:The only restriction will be that artist's will have to Register with their true identity. They may even promote themselves within reasonable limits.
What do you folks think?
Dear CML,

I see a little bit of unfairness here. When we request the artist to reveal their true identity, surely it will not be unfair for the artist to expect the same transparency from the reviewer.

As of now we have various artists registered in their actual names. We also know that Vidyaarthi is NSG , mridangam is Balaji and Erode refers to Nagaraj etc.

We are also aware of the identities of our reviewers like Rajesh, Bharat, bilahari, bala747, s_hari, etc...

The problem arises when certain reviewers have a hidden motivation and misuse their wonderful gift of writing to humiliate artists by hiding behind the cloak of anonymity.

I am sure that initiator of this thread would not speak the same language if he reveals who he is. And so he will remain a mystery and if I may add some one who lacks courage, a person who anonymously hits at the dignity of artists.

The small bits we know of this "brave" man is that he is an organiser in San Diego and normally prefers sitting in the 7th row of NGS.

For harmless banter and even for serious technical discussions, the rasikas can be anonymous. But when one pours venom, I think the moderators have the right to demand that the "rasika" reveal his identity or delete his post.
Last edited by cienu on 19 Nov 2009, 15:19, edited 1 time in total.

cienu
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Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 11:40

Post by cienu »

karthikbala wrote:Artistes are better off not reading reviews, let alone participating in these discussions. Artistes should freely and boldly follow their impulses and inclinations. Giving weightage to criticism, praise, or suggestions however well meaning is IMHO undesirable
I agree with you on the second part of your statement, that artists should not give much weightage to what is discussed in these forums. If the artist feels that there is valid criticism, he may use it.(like in rajesh's reviews) or ignore .

As Uday said, reading "good" reviews always, does no good to the rasikas or the artist. As long as reviewers restrict themselves to the concert , there should be no issue.

As far as artists reading or commenting on this forum, that is purely their personal choice.
Last edited by cienu on 19 Nov 2009, 18:04, edited 1 time in total.

S.NAGESWARAN
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Joined: 11 Feb 2009, 08:54

Post by S.NAGESWARAN »

cm lover[Ref.NO.42], cienu and other Rasikas,

I have already opened a thread a few months ago suggesting to have an additional box for indicating the true name of the Rasikas registering as members of the Rasikas.org and their Mail IDs.

It is mandatory on any organisation to get the true name while registering as members.
This will facilitate the Administrator to identify if a few members try to register themselves in multiple user names.

I hope that the Administrator will take necessary steps to implement my suggestion.

S.NAGESWARAN.
19.11.2009.

rajeshnat
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Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:04

Post by rajeshnat »

Shalu wrote: Yes, TMK and his wife did steal the show too
Well harimau has indeed written some beautiful reviews like one on TNS recently, One on Golden girl ponnammAl and one about GV her 4 hour concert all in the span of few years, so as such if it remains completely carnatic in his own definition it is worthy, one small step or a big mega step of dilution,he pounds it. As such I like Harimau for his consistency.

I want to stear this thread away from harimau

Shalu
Can you throw some light on how TMK and Sangeetha stole the show. Sureshvv who attended this TMK-Sangeetha concert told me in private when I met him during manasi's concert that it was not a hit (to put it lightly).

cienu
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Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 11:40

Post by cienu »

rajeshnat wrote: I want to steer this thread away from harimau
I think this thread has veered around to a discussion on the limits to which one can use anonynimity as a rasika/ reviewer.
We should stick to that and not worry about steering away from individuals.
Last edited by cienu on 19 Nov 2009, 15:08, edited 1 time in total.

Nick H
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Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03

Post by Nick H »

Well said that artists are rasikas too! They do not live in a separate universe, and I am sure that, in their day-to-day lives, they do not mix only with other artists --- so I see no reason why they should not do so here, and absolutely no reason why they should be excluded! Of course, they should realise that the forum is not a platform for self-advertisement, and if they do thus indulge they will not be popular here.

They should also realise that we do not "sir" people here, or touch their feet when they log on! Of course, respect is given to expertise and experience, just as it is, anyway, from us juniors to those rasikas here with decades of experience matched by depth of research and understanding. A forum is where all interact; there is no stage/audience barrier.

I think that those current members who I know to be artist rasikas would have no disagreement with this.

musicfan_4201
Posts: 199
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:34

Post by musicfan_4201 »

cmlover wrote:Here is a question.

Should we have a separate 'restricted' section at the Forum for the 'artistes' ?
Therein they can freely express their opinions and also objectively respond to Rasika's criticisms. That will give them the freedom to speak for themselves and offer explanations without using their disciples to repond to criticisms from other Rasikas. The only restriction will be that they will have to Register with their true identity. They may even promote themselves within reasonable limits.
What do you folks think?

Have you revealed your true identity :) Certain members in this forum know you based on your long serving dedicated member here!

cmlover
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Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36

Post by cmlover »

My point is this. We know many artistes do read what we discuss here. At times when they are misrepresented they may be itching to respond but may not feel sure about becoming a part of Rasikas to post a response in an assumed name. It is a psychological duel and one will not feel vindicated/relieved until he/she express themselves in their true identity. For example sometime ago TMK chose the News Media to respond to some criticisms appearing here. TNS personally appeared here to correct a viewpoint. Of course NSG is always with us to provide clear directions. We are equally grateful to Prince Rama Varma for participating and clarifying issues. Not only the senior vidvaans but even other performers are here who do not get reviewed as much as they would like to get! No doubt the anonymity is used/abused by some which will be moderated by us when it gets out of control. But then we always miss the grains for the chaff. We argue back and forth about non-issues and personal prejudices rather than focus on issues that will advance CM. We do have a fleet of excellent reviewers (internationally) who pick and highlight the fine CM issues and even glaring errors in performances. We fail to show our appreciation of the fine points but argue for ever on trivial issues or about personal opinions. We can advance our appreciations of CM by a quantum leap if we get to hear from the artiste him/herself once in a while. They need not assume a cloak of anonymity or speak through their disciples as some do now. Olden times Sanjay used to communicate directly through the erstwhile sangeetham site and even Ravikiran was directly addressing brickbats and bouquets. We need closer interactions among the Rasikas and performers for the advancement of CM. As an example won't it be nice if AS chose to explain her reasons for the choice of abhangs that can shut out some of the vile criticisms levelled against her! I agree artistes are also Rasikas since they enjoy critcally their own creations. They need self-analysis as much as feedback from outsiders. Now-a-days their audience is international. What better mode of getting a feedback than through our Forum which is the premier vehicle of CM dissemination and discussions?

sureshvv
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Joined: 05 Jul 2007, 18:17

Post by sureshvv »

rajeshnat wrote: Sureshvv who attended this TMK-Sangeetha concert told me in private...
Not any more :-)

What I meant to say was that I personally did not enjoy it. It definitely looked like the audience lapped it up!

sureshvv
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Joined: 05 Jul 2007, 18:17

Post by sureshvv »

cmlover wrote:
Should we have a separate 'restricted' section at the Forum for the 'artistes' ?
...
What do you folks think?
Good luck with that! This place descends into a "kuzhayadi" so frequently that even the occasional artiste who registers and introduces themself never show up again :(

harimau
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Post by harimau »

rajeshnat wrote:
Well harimau has indeed written some beautiful reviews like one on TNS recently, One on Golden girl ponnammAl and one about GV her 4 hour concert all in the span of few years, so as such if it remains completely carnatic in his own definition it is worthy, one small step or a big mega step of dilution,he pounds it. As such I like Harimau for his consistency.
Here I am, hiding behind a nickname (cowardly, according to some people!) yet calling these concerts as worthy of being seen at.

And if I was asked if I am not being inconsistent, I was going to quote, "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds." :D

But then you have to find some consistency in me! :(

harimau
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Post by harimau »

Uday_Shankar wrote:
Here's my wish list for this thread:

1) Harimau's inputs would be more valuable if they were constructive instead of mere dismissive rants.
Ok, here is my suggestion to Ravikiran: Please stay away from diluting Carnatic music.

And here it is to Sri Anil Srinivasan: Can we have you stick to playing Liszt and Chopin? I would love to listen to that.

Now, is that constructive enough?

Or, do you think Ravikiran should cater to the TED crowd and try to increase his audience at the expense of classicism?

Last time, I pointed out that though I didn't attend the Ravikiran-Anil Srinivasan concert that I had commented on, I had attended an earlier concert where GJR Krishnan-Lalgudi Vijayalakshmi played with Anil Srinivasan to a full-house crowd at the Music Academy where the person who was most enthusiastic and vocal about expressing his appreciation was one who wanted the artists to announce the ragas they had just played. While I have forgotten the ragas in that instance, they were commonplace enough and not something like Nagadhwani, Kutuhalam or Kolahalam which are rarely heard. I asked if this is the kind of audience the artists wanted. Sri Anil Srinivasan neatly sidestepped the question by saying he would let Ravikiran answer that. Why did he not answer what type of audience he craves for?

I recall the old Hollywood publicist's saying: The only thing worse than bad publicity is no publicity.

I guess the artists are enjoying the publicity they are getting. :D

arasi
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Post by arasi »

Just the artistes??

uday_shankar
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Post by uday_shankar »

harimau wrote: Ok, here is my suggestion to Ravikiran: Please stay away from diluting Carnatic music.

And here it is to Sri Anil Srinivasan: Can we have you stick to playing Liszt and Chopin? I would love to listen to that.

Now, is that constructive enough?
No sir, it's still not constructive. It's still dismissive albeit not a rant, I (g)rant you :).

If you must use the word dilution, then there are various gradations of dilution all the way from Ariyakudi's dilution of the old long concert format to any contemporary efforts. And not all dilutions are shallow and gimmicky. Again it's a matter of personal opinion, but I might be inclined to think that Kunnakudi's efforts are gimmicky while (some of) L Shankar's efforts are superior art. But I've heard some rasikas club them together, to my utter shock. Here it is the rasika that has a "dilution" of perspective :).

So, what makes a certain "dilution" worthwhile to me ?

I think answer depends on how intense and serious an artistic effort is it ? Let's keep the "spiritual" aspects out of it for the moment, that's a Carnatic bane on rational discussion.

So how intense and serious an artistic effort is something ?

The trinty's as well as OVK's compositions are intense and serious artistic efforts in a transcendental way as we all know.

Semmangudi was an intense and serious musician.

The circque de soleil is an intense and serious artistic effort.

M F Hussain, at least in my reckoning, is not an intense and serious artist.

Vincent Van Gogh was an intense and serious artist.

Ravikiran's track record and all contemporary efforts suggest that he is a very intense and serious artist. I must cofess to a bias but it would be silly not to give an intense and serious artist like that the benefit of the doubt even if you don't like something at first blush.

As for dilution, I would suggest you attend a regular katcheri of Ravikiran as well as a recital of chopin by Anil and decide for yourself if there's any "dilution".

The musical community consists of a diversity of attitudes and the only thing that can unify them is their intensity and seriousness, not specifics of form. So some musicians may focus on the paTa shuddham, others on manodharma, others on RTP and so on. And yet others on collaborative efforts.

The world is always changing and one must not confuse orthodoxy with seriousness and earnestness.

BTW, I believe (again it is just an opinion) that the snake dance song and the blind monkey song are not serious and intense and border on gimmickry :).
Last edited by Guest on 20 Nov 2009, 00:56, edited 1 time in total.

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

Interestingly same sort of debate went on in late thirties when Tamilsongs were sung in Concerts.
Dilution! SSI/HMB went forward and lifted the veil on swati. Ms started singing Bhajans in concerts. That was considered dilution too! By the by Saint Thyagaraja was just a Bhajana artiste and not a concert artise!

Snake dance was composed by OVK but tuned by an unknown NKB (at that time) and is considered a dilution! Some of us are trying to promote 'new' vaggeyakaras; are we guilty? And there is one among us who is trying to introduce a new language nto CM! What is the punishment for his crime?

rshankar
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Post by rshankar »

cmlover wrote:Snake dance was composed by OVK but tuned by an unknown NKB (at that time) and is considered a dilution!
Are you sure of this? AFAIK, Sri OVK set all of his compositions to tune...

In terms of dilution and chaste, just like that thread on saukhyam and gauravam, here is my (tongue-in-cheek :P) take:

chaste - that which is appreciated by (and only by) the 'true' rasika - the ones with a halo who make pronouncements and see no need to explain

dilution - that which is not appreciated by the said 'true' rasika
Last edited by rshankar on 20 Nov 2009, 02:58, edited 1 time in total.

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

Shankar
I liked your definitions :)
(we can add names as examples but desist :)

When I made the statement on NKB tuning the snake dance I was only quoting somebody (I have lost the reference!). Incidentally during the early days even OVK was considered a dilution with claims that NKB has fobbed off his own compositions under that name. In fact Ravikiran put up a valiant fight and established the credibility of OVK!
But the 'true' Rasikas may not accept it :)

rajaglan
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Post by rajaglan »

Hi Uday,

The latest comment by Harimau is decent in its content considering the fact that he is a
purist. He doesnot say anything about the usual traditional concert of Ravikiran. And I am
sure nobody can say anything about seriousness of Ravikiran in his approach to CM concerts.

Dilution levels are again subjective and it varies. So again talking about dilution with a
purist knowing his threshold very well is not going to workout in this form of communication.
May be face to face , but not sure.
Last edited by rajaglan on 20 Nov 2009, 12:46, edited 1 time in total.

Always_Evolving
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Post by Always_Evolving »

I am not knowledgeable about the Kalinga Narthana Thillana and how corrupted it has become since OVK's "original" version but just wanted to put on record -- it is not the snake that is dancing but Krishna!! Hence "Snake dance song" may be a bit of a misnomer.

rshankar
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Post by rshankar »

Always_Evolving wrote: it is not the snake that is dancing but Krishna!! Hence "Snake dance song" may be a bit of a misnomer.
Just like 'man kI ANkhEn khOl' is certainly not the 'monkey' song!!

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

Is there a different version of Kalinga Narthana Thillana other than that by AS?

Always_Evolving
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Post by Always_Evolving »

Uday it is hard to objectively say how "serious and intense" someone is. Fairly shallow stuff comes from people who are in dead earnest! That said, I suppose one can have a subjective "S&I gauge" for personal use.

Firstly I wouldn't go in to hear a collaborative effort between these two instruments expecting the piano to produce the same kind of Gamakakriya as the chitravina. And having attempted to present as fusion music, such a great masterpiece, maybe, just maybe, someone like Ravikiran was aware of this? Which would mean that was not the point of the exercise. In that case what was it? Knowing the seriousness of a Ravikiran I'd try to find that out. Rather than judge his motivations as "try(ing) to increase his audience at the expense of classicism".

What is so "decent" about such a conclusion?

I would limit myself to saying that something doesn't have aesthetic appeal for me.
Last edited by Always_Evolving on 21 Nov 2009, 01:22, edited 1 time in total.

harimau
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Post by harimau »

Uday_Shankar wrote:
If you must use the word dilution, then there are various gradations of dilution all the way from Ariyakudi's dilution of the old long concert format to any contemporary efforts. And not all dilutions are shallow and gimmicky. Again it's a matter of personal opinion, but I might be inclined to think that Kunnakudi's efforts are gimmicky while (some of) L Shankar's efforts are superior art. But I've heard some rasikas club them together, to my utter shock. Here it is the rasika that has a "dilution" of perspective :).

So, what makes a certain "dilution" worthwhile to me ?

I think answer depends on how intense and serious an artistic effort is it ? Let's keep the "spiritual" aspects out of it for the moment, that's a Carnatic bane on rational discussion.
Let us take an example from the world of architecture.

I for one (I am not sure others share this perspective) am amazed when I see the temples in Darasuram, Tiruvarur, Madurai and Thanjavur.

I am equally impressed by the beauty of the Taj Mahal and of the beautiful Blue Mosque in Mazar-e-Sharif or other mosques in Isfahan or Bokhara or Samarkand(which I have seen only in photos).

Then I walk into the Qutb Minar complex in Delhi.

You see a pavilion with pillars in the traditional Hindu style of decoration: the pillars are octagonal in shape with two or three square panels and on each side of the panel is a figure of a celestial dancer or a musician.

The sign in the park says that these pillars were re-used from 27 Hindu and Jain temples destroyed by the Sultans of Delhi.

The figures of the dancers and musicians on the pillars have their noses chiselled off.

Now, could you argue that the Sultan was not intense and serious in his artistic effort to build a mosque?

Would you accept what he did?

The nearby Qutb Minar (the tower) is a thing of beauty I can appreciate. It is said that its interior is filled with the unusable rubble from those 27 temples.

So, why should I accept so serene and sublime a creation as "Meenakshi Me Mudham Dehi" being subjected to vandalism at the hands of people who should know better?

That is exactly why I say I am perfectly willing to listen to Chopin and Liszt on the piano by Anil Stinivasan or a classical music concert by Ravikiran... which I do.

Let me tell you a story related by a dear lady in her very late 80's. As a child learning Carnatic music, she asked her teacher one day to teach her Nalinakanthi. Her teacher stomped off to her father to tell him that his daughter wanted to learn English music and so he should find some other person to teach music to his daughter.

In 80 years, Nalinakanthi is mainstream and the subject of R-T-Ps.

The first step in the slippery slope is the dangerous one. There is no recovery after that.

uday_shankar
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Post by uday_shankar »

Harimau

The sultan analogy are inappropriate and can be turned back on you.

The vandal sultans of delhi were the upholders of Islamic orthodoxy who prided themselves in vandalizing, terrorizing and destroying anything heterodox including other religions and forms of Islam different from that practiced by themselves.

This is pretty much the story of Harimau with respect to Carnatic orthodoxy. Exclusive orthodoxy of a private live-and-let-live kind, say like Vaishnavism is harmless. Orthodoxy that seeks to destroy the "other" like Islamism or "Harimauism" could lead to stagnation.

We could take a poll as to who think Ravikiran and Anil Srinivasan are vandals when it comes to their collaborative efforts and who thinks that Harimau is not a net vandal :).

If it is the case that Nalinakanthi is the subject of an RTP (I hate the very idea), then so be it. It cannot be destroyed by ranting on the web. Just don't go to those concerts. If nothing but that is available, then don't go to any concerts. I would be more than happy to share (or point to in rasikapriya) my awesome MP3 recordings of Madurai Mani Iyer and Semmangudi Srinivasa Iyer accompanied by Lalgudi Jayaraman singing ragas like Kamboji, Bhairavi and Shankarabharanam. This is how I mostly derive my own happiness. There's not much life in contemporary concerts.

Again I cannot blame the artists. The loss of innocence and the concurrent apparent decrease in earnestness is the bane of modernism...its the decline of spiritual life and the difficulty of holding unwaveringly to beliefs. If musicians cannot believe unwaveringly in the "anugraham" of "Tyagarajaswami" or the "Gurunathar" or "Bhagavan", the music lacks "uyir" or life. It may be slick and full of virtuosity but lacks "uyir". There is so much fawning on the part of musicians and rasikas falling over themselves about Tyagaraja and Dikshitar but a lot of it gives the appearance of being nothing more than clueless show.

So the problem is how to bring back the "uyir", how can the musicians be less slick, more genuinely devoted to values, more innocent, etc... Once such things happen, they will automatically realize the shallowness of singing a Nalinakanti RTP.

Then there is also the case of overdose. If musicians performed fewer times and rasikas listened less, there would be a freshness to items that are worthwhile. I personally am very judicous and spare in listening and hence am able to come back to the same Semmangudi after a while and derive the same pleasure. Also I switch genres like WCM and even rock (Pink Floyd, Jethro Tull) sometimes. This way I avoid having to listen to the shallower forms (i.e., Nalinakanti RTP) of a single genre like CM.

Overdose on the part of performers and rasikas may lead to jadedness and the constant quest for something "new" leads to shallowness. One of the ways to seek something new and avoid shallowness would be to seek a bridge, however nascent and imperfect, between the genuinely good and serious in different genres, say Purvikalyani in CM and chopin in WM :). This is not vandalism.

Last but not the least, if musicians got paid a lot more per concert, then perhaps they would perform less but with greater quality.
Last edited by Guest on 21 Nov 2009, 07:20, edited 1 time in total.

gn.sn42
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Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 23:56

Post by gn.sn42 »

Uday_Shankar wrote:how can the musicians be less slick, more genuinely devoted to values, more innocent, etc... Once such things happen, they will automatically realize the shallowness of singing a Nalinakanti RTP.
I don't particularly want to step into this endless discussion (my position: I have no problem with harimau's tone and style; I do disagree heartily with his views and will mostly ignore them), but I found this comment surprising. The only Nalinakanti RTP I have heard was by someone who I would call a very serious musician, devoted to values, and so on (and who is generally acknowledged as such in this forum). Shallow? I don't think so.

Edit: Turns out I've heard a couple more; also good.
Last edited by gn.sn42 on 21 Nov 2009, 10:25, edited 1 time in total.

musicfan_4201
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Post by musicfan_4201 »

In the name of creativity, fusion music, jugalbandis these kind of experimentations are done by many artists and that is the starting point of dilution of the art form. Certain instruments are not best suited for Carnatic Music or Hindustani Music. Piano / keyboards etc. My perception is that these are done to attract crowd of a different segment. If these experiments succeed concentartion will be turned towards that than the mainstream CM. Over a period this will kill the art form. As it is is today this has become more of an entertainment arena than a real CM concert. The concert Halls are being used as a meeting point for any people, restaurants, social meetings blah blah blah.
Can drums substitute mridangam in CM. Some may say yes but definitely not. Can a T20 be equivalent to a test match. It is an absolute diluted version of the game. Test to 60 overs each to 50 overs and now T20. Unnikrishnan started performing as a pure classical singer and it was excellent. His foray into film music definitely has taken a beating on his style and also in terms of people appreciating his music.
I am afraid CM will head the same way if these experiments are conducted. Dilution of the art form in any way for the sake of propagating the art or in the name of attracting different crowd segments should not be tolerated.
Last edited by musicfan_4201 on 21 Nov 2009, 10:35, edited 1 time in total.

anandabhairavi
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Post by anandabhairavi »

I have heard Nithyashree Mahadevan present a brilliant RTP in nalinakanti in Shanmukhananda hall last year and it was bliss!!

kamalamba
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Post by kamalamba »

I have been following this thread for a while now. I was reminded of this nice interview with BMK on NDTV.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfVufU_vC-0

Enjoy

Kamalamba

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

>I am afraid CM will head the same way if these experiments are conducted.
>Dilution of the art form in any way for the sake of propagating the art or in the name of attracting different crowd segments should not be tolerated.

reductio ad absurdum.

- CM is such a delicate thing and void of confidence in its own strengths that it is going to be diluted beyond recognition because these "experiments" are conduced.
- Film music did not destroy it, western influences during the British regime did not destory it, but the mere act of conducting such 'experiments' destroy it.
- You are afraid that if it is indeed successful, the current crop of CM concert goers and CD buyers would move to that, abandoning CM?
- To chase after that audience current and future CM artists will dilute the music.
- This leads to an absurd conclusion that the reason that people go to CM concerts now is because there are no alternatives like the Chithraveena-Piano collaborative type.


>The first step in the slippery slope is the dangerous one. There is no recovery after that.

The slippery slope argument is one of the lamest and when applied willy nilly it is one of the most dangerous techniques. It is almost never true and has been used to bring out the worst among humans. It is a defeatist attitude and it is usually made by people who do not realize their own strengths.

It also shows a megalomaniacal predictive ability about the future.

Let me offer an alternative to this slippery slope bleak view of the future.

Let us assume that the Chithra Veena-Piano collaboration really takes off and people really flock to those concerts. Let us also assume that a subset of these fans were not CM fans prior to this.
Guess what, average attendance at traditional CM concerts go up.
These fans who came to these concerts attracted by the unique harmonizing of Purvi Kalyani encounter the
unharmonized Purvi Kalyani, discover a different facet of the same music they are familiar with and develop a taste for it. CM as we know it now thrives even better than before.

There, my own megalomaniacal predictive powers!!

( just to be sure, this is not about if someone should like these kinds of concerts or not, that is of course completely up to the individuals, this is about these tears being shed about CM's fate )

ragam-talam
Posts: 1896
Joined: 28 Sep 2006, 02:15

Post by ragam-talam »

For harmless banter and even for serious technical discussions, the rasikas can be anonymous. But when one pours venom, I think the moderators have the right to demand that the "rasika" reveal his identity or delete his post.
And how exactly does one determine the 'true' identity of the person? That they should provide their home address and phone no, then the Admins from this forum go to their houses, check their driving license/passport and ensure they are who they say they are?
The internet comes with certain features, and anonymity is one of them. Just accept it.
Besides, we even have books written by people who have remained anonymous. 'Primary Colors' is one such example. The author poured quite a bit of venom, if I recall.

ragam-talam
Posts: 1896
Joined: 28 Sep 2006, 02:15

Post by ragam-talam »

One other point: just as folks such as harimau have the right to air their views, we have an equal right to ignore them.

I am reminded of the Zen saying: "If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?"

ragam-talam
Posts: 1896
Joined: 28 Sep 2006, 02:15

Post by ragam-talam »

harimau wrote:The first step in the slippery slope is the dangerous one. There is no recovery after that.
Hmm, this sounds like the typical Americanism that 'non-software coolies' who have spent years in the US keep parroting. Learn to state something original, for a change. Or is that asking for too much?

uday_shankar
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Post by uday_shankar »

gn.sn42 wrote:I found this comment surprising. The only Nalinakanti RTP I have heard was by someone who I would call a very serious musician, devoted to values, and so on (and who is generally acknowledged as such in this forum). Shallow? I don't think so.
Girish relax ! Nalinakanti was just a place holder, a rhetorical device to make an argument. I like the rAga and may even enjoy an RTP in it, I don't know. My "opinions" on these matters are not held as a universal prescription (unlike someone else we know :)) but manifest themselves in my listening choices.

cmlover
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Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36

Post by cmlover »

kamalamba wrote:I have been following this thread for a while now. I was reminded of this nice interview with BMK on NDTV.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfVufU_vC-0

Enjoy

Kamalamba
Thaanks Kamalamba! Coming from a Maestro that is a mind-opener!

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

Uday_Shankar wrote: There's not much life in contemporary concerts.
.......
. If musicians cannot believe unwaveringly in the "anugraham" of "Tyagarajaswami" or the "Gurunathar" or "Bhagavan", the music lacks "uyir" or life. It may be slick and full of virtuosity but lacks "uyir". So the problem is how to bring back the "uyir", how can the musicians be less slick, more genuinely devoted to values, more innocent, etc...
.
Hypocrite :)

harimau
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Post by harimau »

Uday_Shankar wrote:Harimau


The vandal sultans of delhi were the upholders of Islamic orthodoxy who prided themselves in vandalizing, terrorizing and destroying anything heterodox including other religions and forms of Islam different from that practiced by themselves.

.......

Overdose on the part of performers and rasikas may lead to jadedness and the constant quest for something "new" leads to shallowness. One of the ways to seek something new and avoid shallowness would be to seek a bridge, however nascent and imperfect, between the genuinely good and serious in different genres, say Purvikalyani in CM and chopin in WM :). This is not vandalism.
The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.
Uday_Shankar wrote:
Last but not the least, if musicians got paid a lot more per concert, then perhaps they would perform less but with greater quality.
The music teacher of the old lady who was probably paid Re. 1 a month (that rupee bought 10 measures - padi - or more of rice in those days and so could feed his family for at least 15 days) was willing to forego that money rather than teach what he considered to be an unacceptable raga of Carnatic music.

We do have different measures today.... and I don't mean kilograms either!

harimau
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Post by harimau »

ragam-talam wrote:
harimau wrote:The first step in the slippery slope is the dangerous one. There is no recovery after that.
Hmm, this sounds like the typical Americanism that 'non-software coolies' who have spent years in the US keep parroting. Learn to state something original, for a change. Or is that asking for too much?
I used another quote in a response to Uday Shankar.

It is not original either. :P

chalanata
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Post by chalanata »

harimau,
By chance you're going to be in Chennai for this Dec season? in which case we can expect lot of fire works from you!

uday_shankar
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Post by uday_shankar »

harimau wrote:The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.
Who said anything about "good intentions" ? I think it is enough that musicians satisfy their own inner artistic calling.
harimau wrote:
Uday_Shankar wrote:Last but not the least, if musicians got paid a lot more per concert, then perhaps they would perform less but with greater quality.
The music teacher of the old lady who was probably paid Re. 1 a month (that rupee bought 10 measures - padi - or more of rice in those days and so could feed his family for at least 15 days) was willing to forego that money rather than teach what he considered to be an unacceptable raga of Carnatic music.

We do have different measures today.... and I don't mean kilograms either!
This is very flawed and I am stumped...I don't even know where begin. I'm reminded Wolfgang Pauli who said of ideas so flawed that they were "not even wrong".

But I would urge an examination of the evolution of society, aspirations, support structure, etc... Also, some ethical considerations like the "goose-gander" stuff and the golden rule ("do unto your fellow man as you would unto yourself"). I am surprised that someone who spent so much time in the US, presumably, should be saying stuff like this. Or for that matter rant instead of doing constructive things! I would urge you to go back and read the declaration of independence "we hold these truths to be self-evident that all men are created equal"... In many ways, this is a statement on the failure of Hindu culture to inculcate egalitarian moral and ethical values in their children, especially in the older generation. Hence a Harimau who travels between the US and India with greater financial ease than an average musician can afford to travel between Chennai and Trichy feels no sense of irony when insisting that a musician should uphold "higher" values without any thought for personal income. And failing that, somehow ranting on the internet can effect this! Maybe instead of using the forum as an outlet for such things, you could recognize that you're being an outlet yourself - the one at the end of the alimentary canal, that is.
Last edited by Guest on 22 Nov 2009, 10:38, edited 1 time in total.

balakk
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Post by balakk »

Uday_Shankar wrote: you could recognize that you're being an outlet yourself - the one at the end of alimentary canal, that is.
Oh wow. Failure of Hindu culture, American experiences, Ethical moral values, anatomical references, oh my! And accusations of others ranting ? :P

OP merely said musicians valued quality & dedication to their work in those times. He did say times have changed.

I'm liking this forum more and more! I'll get popcorn and watch though.

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

Maybe instead of using the forum as an outlet for such things, you could recognize that you're being an outlet yourself - the one at the end of the alimentary canal, that is.
Sometimes when that outlet is blocked the stuff gets gurgitated at this Forum. And then we are stuck with a massive clean-up operation :)

swarakalpana
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Post by swarakalpana »

Can someone put an end to this thread please? This verbal diarrhoea has become too chronic.

rshankar
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Post by rshankar »

Swarakalpana - look at it like a bad example of manodharma sangItam - neveral and kalpanasvaram!! :P

uday_shankar
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Post by uday_shankar »

balakk wrote:And accusations of others ranting ? :P
Good point ! But then, one swallow does not make summer, etc...Also, keep the popcorn for later, I'm retiring :). This exercise is indeed a complete waste of time.

mahesh3
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Post by mahesh3 »

Uday,

So:

The themes and tricks you have elaborated on have included speaking abt Ravikiran/Anil as compadres/collaborators, assertions that today's carnatic music lacks "uyir" and therefore an implication that we need to listen to your favorite chitraveena/piano combo, subtle ridicule at people who still cling onto yesteryear doyens, not-so-subtle ridicule at people who dont care for pianists in carnatic, overbearing ridicule at people who are not interested in experiencing a medley of the cherished "meenakshi memudham" on a chitravina/piano and sheer anger at Harimau for being a little more convincing with his stand....

I can see why you might want to retire but I do admire your earnest efforts at what was an impossible hand-to-win! Bravo...

By the way, I am all for Anil and Ravikiran's combinations...just as an FYI!
Last edited by mahesh3 on 23 Nov 2009, 06:51, edited 1 time in total.

cienu
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Post by cienu »

mahesh3 wrote:Uday,

----------------- and sheer anger at Harimau for being a little more convincing with his stand....
Uday is one of the most level headed and logical thinking guys on this forum.

Mods - Time to lock yet another Harimau thread. :)

mahesh3
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Post by mahesh3 »

haha! and to think she chose chakkani raja instead...

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

sureshvv wrote:Appears that harimau came a little late to the proceedings on the final day. As part of the valedictory function, special guest Paul Dinakaran , a christian priest in Chennai exhorted carnatic musicians to take up more socially relevant lyrics so the music could reach the masses. He then proceeded to give an example by singing the song "Que Sera Sera" in vilamba kaalam as an example of how carnatic music could become more popular and lauded Aruna Sairam as the musician who could make this happen. It was all very surreal :)
What an atrocity? Of 'diluting' the sacred classical 'Carnatic Music' :)
Did any classicist commit suicide :)

rajeshnat
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Post by rajeshnat »

What is the necessity of inviting an evangelist for the proceedings ? Is all this necessary, why is carnatica doing this in carnatic concert proceedings ? I have nothing against other religions , but why this for an utsav that is predominantly carnatic based?
Last edited by rajeshnat on 25 Nov 2009, 08:10, edited 1 time in total.

rajaglan
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Post by rajaglan »

I think the most appropriate advise from paul should have been, to also include songs of the other gods
like Jesus, Mahaveer...in carnatic concerts as he is a religious man and he knows carnatic songs are mostly
on god. He missed the oppurtunity to do that (if he didnot say that).

On a different note, I am not sure whether Yesudas has sung songs of jesus within a carnatic carnatic
form, if not the main atleast as tukkada.

I agree with Rajesh... what is the necessity of Paul to be invited for this utsav.

I donot find it surprising that they praise AS. After so much discussion on the other thread on AS, we conclude that she has
impressed/brought people from noncarnatic background. People can only appreciate what they heard/felt/understood.
She can feel happy that her mission has met success.
Last edited by rajaglan on 25 Nov 2009, 10:07, edited 1 time in total.

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