Perspective on amateurs accompanying the professionals

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 11 Feb 2011, 09:53

rigveda wrote "The day a dollar becomes equal to a rupee, no artist from India will be seen anywhere near NA! That is the truth."

true, but then how many Indians would you find in NA if that happens

The analysis of the financial situation sounds about right. We do not have to be squeamish or apologetic about discussing money matters. Money does not necessarily mean business ( and why is that bad? ), it is for sustenance of the efforts.

That is from the supply side.

What about demand? Can you get audience to show up for NA based artists concerts, irrespective of whether they pay or not? In my experience, temple auditorium concerts have some chance, since it has the benefit of guaranteed foot traffic. Some small % of people may talk in. May be you can put up a donation box and collect some money. The other technique is have a Music Schools Day. That is, it is an opportunity for all the music schools in the area to show case the talent of their students. This usually generates good audience since the parents, relatives and friends of all the students show up.

We have a lot to learn from veteran concert organizers like VKV who have struggled mightily hard during the early times of CM in NA.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 11 Feb 2011, 14:20

Do you not have a third class of musician in North America? The trained, professional, probably teaching, musician? London is almost overflowing with them, and there are a senior handful that could put together a top-class concert any week without even bringing even a main artist from India!

rigedveda, it is a pity that your obsession does not allow you to appreciate that VVS is liked and respected as an individual. In principle, I don't like front-row, VIP, bowing and scraping either, and there is too much of it, but this doesn't damn all the individuals involved, many of whom are genuinely eminent.

And, anyway... you don't treat potential employers with some deference? Simple facts of life.

mri_fan · Post by **mri_fan** » 11 Feb 2011, 20:14

There are virtually no professional full-time carnatic musicians who live in the United States. There are a couple of young musicians just getting started with trying to make a full-time living, and a few women who teach full-time while their husbands have other full-time jobs. We definitely have musicians that perform top-class concerts in the US, but the sheer distances/cost to travel across the US makes it difficult. New Jersey, Detroit and California and DC are the best places now in terms of teachers/performing muscians, but this changes often. For example, DC was the home of Smt. Sandya Srinath, an A-grade violin artist, who spent almost every weekend traveling around the country playing for top-ranked musicians. They recently relocated to Banglore for a couple of years, and as a result, the quality of concerts in the area will likely suffer, as well as the development of her students.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 11 Feb 2011, 22:47

Thanks, mri_fan. Of course, USA is an absolutely enormous country, and it is not comparable to one city in uk, but, there is so much in London, you'd be amazed. Actually, I think there is too much now, and the market may be becoming saturated (it is a market, with the teaching, and the arangetrams), so best thing would be to get some of them to USA!

rigveda · Post by **rigveda** » 12 Feb 2011, 06:54

I don't know who this Nick H is. I am quite vary of him. I want to stress that I have nothing against Mr Sundaram. I don't even know him. In fact I was curious when the incident I explained (that took place lase year to be precise) and made investigations as to why a senior musician stopped performance to pay obedience to this gentleman and I was told he was the organizer of Cleveland Aradhana. The point is in my opinion he symbolizes the NA scene and can be used as a case study.
Coming back to the topic of discussion, I will think for a while and get back.

Enna_Solven · Post by **Enna_Solven** » 12 Feb 2011, 07:07

I don't know either who this Mr. Nick H is :$ and I am quite wary of him as he seems to be a balanced guy

He sports a kurta and veshti and attends way too many carnatic concerts in Chennai. On that count I am very jealous of him too :envy:

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 12 Feb 2011, 20:53

... only three in the past three days, and five this week

rigveda · Post by **rigveda** » 14 Feb 2011, 08:47

Let me share some experiences. I lived in the NJ area for many years before moving to a small town in Michigan. Thanks to the restructuring and reshuffling by big pharmaceutical sharks. During my life here I have attended many concerts in many cities. I have noticed that the average age of the audience is greater than 50. This means the people who come to the concerts are used to the brainwashing in India of "established names" like Seshagopalan, Bombay Jayashree and also the dose of media onslaught they read about a T.M.Krishna and a Sanjay Subramaniam. This explains why only "veterans and famous" Indian musicians attract large crowd. The American media has moved with the times. Long ago they supported rock and roll and then it was something else and now it is rap. The organzations in NA should take up the responsbility of projecting NA artists and target younger Indian Americans. Then only the local artists will attract a good crowd. This can not happen at the present time since the organizers are themsleves in their sixties and their interest is only in perpetuating the system and not in changing it. The main harm they are doing is they are imposing their culture on the prospective future managers. To give a concrete example, in the years to come people like Karthick Venkatraman (I believe he is close to the Aradhna big bosses) will assume the role of a Sundaram in Cleveland. The problem is he has been brainwashed enough to continue the same tradition and we can not expect any change. The same system probably operates in LA, NJ and Chicago. What is required is a complete formatting of the hard drive and installation of new software.
Here is another personal experience with no intent to point fingers. When I was doing my engineering in a small town in Maharashtra, we used to have a Professor of Archaeology from an Ivy League school visiting us and spend many months. He was very popular and every body knew him, but no body asked what he was doing in this small town. He learnt the local dialect, stayed in the best hotel and participated in all cultural activities. Years later Indira Gandhi declared emergeny law and cracked down on many aspects os Indian life. That was the last one heard of him as if to confirm rumours that he was a CIA operative.
Morale: Don't be carried away by dhoti clad foreigners who demonstrate a more than normal interest in your country and culture. Some may be genuine but some may not.

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 14 Feb 2011, 08:58

I would trust him more than someone with poor spelling who spews conspiracy theories and lives in a small town in Michigan.
Rigveda, I am wary of you.

ramamantra · Post by **ramamantra** » 14 Feb 2011, 09:04

rigveda wrote:Morale: Don't be carried away by dhoti clad foreigners who demonstrate a more than normal interest in your country and culture. Some may be genuine but some may not.

That was funny! But, yes, i do agree with you. In all my musical endeavors, esp, my tryst with ethnomusicology and the like, I have seen over-enthusiastic foreigners penetrating the core thoughts/ideas in Carnatic music, steering them with their so-called suave posturing and generally, receiving more attention than they deserved, and, from our all-time Yes-ministertype Indians. By the time one reverts to the core problem and solves it, the problem itself takes a completely different shape and the core idea is lost. Anyway, cribbings from an old man......

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 14 Feb 2011, 10:44

rigveda, you are exhibiting a narrow mindedness of immense proportions. Imagine someone in your neighborhood say such things to your face, "I am wary of you, some Indians are good, some Indians are bad.'.. While absolutely conveying a truism of zero significance, it is hurtful and make you feel very unwelcome in that place. That is exactly what you are doing to Nick which is quite shameful.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 14 Feb 2011, 12:30

I am content that there are plenty of fellow members who have known me online for many years, and quite a few who have met me personally. We may not all agree, of course, on music, let alone other aspects of life, both in India and the rest of the world. Nobody gets carried away, though, except, maybe, my wife!

Everybody wants to be liked by all. However, it is fact of life, that we have to accept, that that isn't going to happen!

Anyway, if rigveda wants to pick on me, instead of VVS, well... at least it makes a change!

cienu · Post by **cienu** » 14 Feb 2011, 12:47

rigveda wrote:When I was doing my engineering in a small town in Maharashtra, we used to have a Professor of Archaeology from an Ivy League school visiting us and spend many months. He was very popular and every body knew him, but no body asked what he was doing in this small town. He learnt the local dialect, stayed in the best hotel and participated in all cultural activities. Years later Indira Gandhi declared emergeny law and cracked down on many aspects os Indian life. That was the last one heard of him as if to confirm rumours that he was a CIA operative.
Morale: Don't be carried away by dhoti clad foreigners who demonstrate a more than normal interest in your country and culture. Some may be genuine but some may not.

I am surprised that you have attributed the disappearance of the Professor during the infamous emergency to his being a "probable CIA agent". Most decisions taken during the emergency period were palpably wrong and meant to perpetuate the rule of the then PM by any means.

The Emergency was declared to suppress the widespread political unrest and agitation generated by Indira Gandhi's refusal to submit to her unseating from power in a judgment by the Allahabad High Court on an election petition charging her with electoral corruption in her Lok Sabha General Elections.

Overnight, hundreds of political Opposition leaders and activists were arrested and put in jails all over India. The Indian media was strangled and put under stringent censorship. Human rights and freedoms were brutally suppressed.

Even the Congress party today acknowledges that the decision to impose Emergency was wrong.

The conclusions you appear to derive from the Professor's disappearance during the emergency period and the attempt to juxtapose this incident with any foreigner who shows "excessive" interest in our culture is crude and also in extremely bad taste

I go along with the sentiments expressed by VK.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 14 Feb 2011, 14:34

I'd recommend to rv that he (assuming he) should take me as seriously as I take him

What I care about is the aspersions cast on people who do so much work for carnatic music, and I find it hard to stay quiet in the face of that. That's all.

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 14 Feb 2011, 14:50

What I care about is the aspersions cast on people who do so much work for carnatic music, and I find it hard to stay quiet in the face of that. That's all.

You are a better person than most. What I care about is the open-faced bigotry. There should be no place for that in this forum.
Well said, VK and Cienu.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 14 Feb 2011, 14:57

You are right, of course, and I appreciate what all of your have said. It doesn't matter that it is aimed at me; it could be any member... as you say, it has no place here.

I dislike all this slur and implication stuff too. Had enough of that in a working life of office politics. Better to have a good shouting match and then get it over and forgotten. One can move on from a good, clean fight --- sometimes, even, with no hard feelings.

If someone says to me, "Who the hell are you to criticise this, or comment on that?" I can accept that, and I can reply, "I am someone who has been in the audience for carnatic music for 15 years, and Indian music generally for as much as twice that." It might not change their mind, but at least it is a clean argument!

Enna_Solven · Post by **Enna_Solven** » 14 Feb 2011, 18:38

007.5, have you filed your December Season 2010 report to M?

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 14 Feb 2011, 21:55

Wait! That's just what they'll be expecting us to do...

rigveda · Post by **rigveda** » 18 Feb 2011, 08:33

Reethigowla
Only today I saw your posting and listened to the clipping
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztmY_1NLrTI
It was too good. Is this guy from US? I know the violinst is TNK. I would like to get some info about him. Truly amazing, if a NA product.

rigveda · Post by **rigveda** » 19 Feb 2011, 07:12

In fact today I watched the other two clippings. They are all truly impressive and I hope they are added to the data base

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 20 Feb 2011, 07:27

rigveda wrote:
Reethigowla
Only today I saw your posting and listened to the clipping
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztmY_1NLrTI
It was too good. Is this guy from US? I know the violinst is TNK. I would like to get some info about him. Truly amazing, if a NA product.

He is a NA product.

In fact he got the Yuva Gala Parathi award. The award was announced a year earlier than he could receive it as at that time he was below the minimum age for the award.

A child prodigy, if there is one.

rigveda · Post by **rigveda** » 20 Feb 2011, 08:45

Thanks Harimau for that information. If he is in NA, it is a pity that Cleveland or other aradhanas do not engage him and speaks volumes about the corruption and nepotism that goes on.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 20 Feb 2011, 08:49

>Cleveland or other aradhanas do not engage him and speaks volumes about the corruption

There you go again, bashing Cleveland!

reethigowla48 · Post by **reethigowla48** » 20 Feb 2011, 12:15

rigveda wrote:In fact today I watched the other two clippings. They are all truly impressive and I hope they are added to the data base

I was just giving some random links that I had come about in youtube. Those ones are hence just samples. I am sure there are plenty of talents scattered across the country. Only that, an organized system and an associated mechanism that spots the talent within the country and encourage them through concerts within NA, is lacking. Still the prevailing situation is that the youngsters who need to become experienced and famous performers still have to go to Chennai and become famous there first, before being regarded as standard performers here.

Rajna Swaminathan from Maryland is another good young mridangist, who might still be in her teens.
With respect to vocal music, two names that come to my mind are Ramakrishnan Murthy and Sandeep Narayan both from NA. I am sure there are atleast a few other youngsters of similar good standards.

reethigowla48 · Post by **reethigowla48** » 20 Feb 2011, 12:22

rigveda wrote:Thanks Harimau for that information. If he is in NA, it is a pity that Cleveland or other aradhanas do not engage him and speaks volumes about the corruption and nepotism that goes on.

I think Rohan Krishnamurthy is reasonably famous in NA, contrary to many of his counterparts. He has his website and very good propaganda mechanisms and lot of support from his family and peers. He used to be active here in rasikas.org . I used to follow his concert videos a few years back, but later lost interest. Even though I cannot go to the extend of singing praises about his playing, I have to agree that he is a reasonably good performer; definitely much much superior in standards than many of the mediocre and below-par amateur performers we usually come across in NA.

rigveda · Post by **rigveda** » 20 Feb 2011, 21:52

vasanthakokilam wrote:>Cleveland or other aradhanas do not engage him and speaks volumes about the corruption

There you go again, bashing Cleveland!

When I said "corruption" it is not in the Indian sense (or American for that matter), where you accept a bribe for a service. The organizations including Cleveland are no doubt clean to the hilt and there is no mess at all. The corruption refers to a "corrupt policy" which again applies to most organizations, not just Cleveland. There is no bashing of any organization here, just an observation. Apologies for any misconception.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 20 Feb 2011, 22:17

Use the right word then.... And you are not obsessed with Cleveland? You ask a question about Rohan, Harimau responds with a straight answer and you use that to drag Cleveland and call them corrupt.

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 20 Feb 2011, 22:27

vasanthakokilam wrote:Use the right word then.... And you are not obsessed with Cleveland? You ask a question about Rohan, Harimau responds with a straight answer and you use that to drag Cleveland and call them corrupt.

Point well taken, VK.
Except, with Harimau we don't know how much sarcasm went into the "straight" answer.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 20 Feb 2011, 22:35

Nick H wrote: but at least it is a clean argument!

Don't expect that of rigveda... He is a bottom feeder located in the armpit of the world!

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 20 Feb 2011, 23:43

can't resist a

at the way you put that.

rigveda · Post by **rigveda** » 21 Feb 2011, 00:12

I checked out the web site of this mridangist. Even if 50% of what the website says has happened, I need some answers. He seems to be doing exactly what Cleveland has in its mission. Yet it looks like he is being side lined. Cleveland started giving out an award last year for someone in NA who has done a lot to promote CM in NA. They chose a vocalist last year who has nothing to show. She doesn't even feature this year. Apparently she got a Fulbright scholarship to go to India. She used her CM talents to get the fellowship and returned back to pursue "medicine"! This year they have chosen some one who is slated to be based in "Chennai". So what is going on?
Let us not close our eyes like the pro verbial cat. There are lot of good things that I salute Cleveland for. But to say that they are the epitome of an organization is a caricature.
When I did my graduate studies in the US, I had the opportunity to work with a world class person. He said something that still rings in my ears
"There are awards that make you famous and there are awards that become famous because you got it". Cleveland or any organization should create awards that will make the awardee famous having received it.
How many first and second prize winners of Cleveland have received concert opportunities, either in the US or India, because of the award. Again a personal experience. I attended a concert by Prof TNK in NJ and the first prize concert winner of Cleveland came to the concert with the Tambura she had won and told TNK about it. He asked her to sit on the stage and provide the tambura. After the first song he said"please go and sit in the first row and try to put thalam". Obviously neither the awardee nor the awarding organization became famous by this.
I am not against any organization, Cleveland the least, but given the publicity they receive, they should also expect more scrutiny. They have a long way to go before appearing credible. For that the organization should not be a one man show.

rigveda · Post by **rigveda** » 21 Feb 2011, 00:46

Sangeetharatnakara is the biggest award given by Cleveland and many musicians of fame have received it. I challenge anyone to tell me how many of these awardees quote that award in their honorofic? I am sure less than 1%. They all quote Sangeetha Kalanidhi (if they have got it) or the Padma Awards(which is illegal to quote, the Home Minsitry clealry says it is not an award and if some one uses it in the visiting card etc, it can be taken away). What does this show? These artists think that the award became famous because they got it and not the other way around. Let us open our eyes.

rigveda · Post by **rigveda** » 21 Feb 2011, 08:20

I just checked the Cleveland we bsite. This time they have a grand prize for the concert winners. I salute them for this gesture and it is a great incentive for the participants. At the same time I have a word of caution. Last year all the seven participants were declared winners in the concert competition. Where is the competition then? I was working on a probability that all the judges will find all the seven participants worthy of first prize. If there was any quantitaive measure, the probability worked out as good as finding life in another planet! Hence, since this time they have announced an attractive first prize, make sure the best candidate gets it. If no one is upto the standard, so be it. Don't select any one. And as I have been stressing bring a sense of integrity to the contest. Don't allow the teachers of the contestants to sit a judges and don't ask the contestants to mention their teacher's name.
If ten stduents are delared winners of concert competition this time, the organizers will have to come up with 10000$

lalithasankar · Post by **lalithasankar** » 23 Feb 2011, 01:06

@Harimau,

In fact he got the Yuva Gala Parathi award. The award was announced a year earlier than he could receive it as at that time he was below the minimum age for the award.

What's the pun behind Yuva Gala Parathi? (if not Yuva Kala Bharathi)

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 23 Feb 2011, 16:42

rigveda wrote:I just checked the Cleveland we bsite. This time they have a grand prize for the concert winners. I salute them for this gesture and it is a great incentive for the participants. At the same time I have a word of caution. Last year all the seven participants were declared winners in the concert competition. Where is the competition then? I was working on a probability that all the judges will find all the seven participants worthy of first prize. If there was any quantitaive measure, the probability worked out as good as finding life in another planet! Hence, since this time they have announced an attractive first prize, make sure the best candidate gets it. If no one is upto the standard, so be it. Don't select any one. And as I have been stressing bring a sense of integrity to the contest. Don't allow the teachers of the contestants to sit a judges and don't ask the contestants to mention their teacher's name.
If ten stduents are delared winners of concert competition this time, the organizers will have to come up with 10000$

We are very thankful to Rigveda for his psuedo probability speculations, Life on another planet, his abilty to get inside the brain of the organisers without any fancy stuff like neurons etc as well as his concerns about their ability to cope and his brilliant lesson on elementary school level arithmetic Calculation that ten times something is just obtained by adding ANOTHER ZERO to the original number. MOST ENLIGHTENING post!.......VKV

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 24 Feb 2011, 07:24

lalithasankar wrote:
@Harimau,
[In fact he got the Yuva Gala Parathi award. The award was announced a year earlier than he could receive it as at that time he was below the minimum age for the award]
What's the pun behind Yuva Gala Parathi? (if not Yuva Kala Bharathi)

As is typical, whenever possible, Harimau's posts have several layers.

The first layer is when Yuva Kala Bharathi is deliberately mistyped as Yuva Gala Paarathi. This could be a reference to the indiscriminate use of 'g' as opposed to 'k' to transcribe words of Indian languages containing 'k' and the average Tamilian's inability to tell the difference between 'p' and 'b'.

The second layer is a reference to an incident in Mahakavi Subramania Bharathi's life. Jealous that at a young age the lad Subramanian had received the title of 'Bharathi', his schoolteacher Kanthimathinathan asked him to compose a poem ending with the words "Bharathi chinnap payal' ("Bharathi is an inconsequential little chap"). Bharathiyar promptly composed the poem which ended "Kanthimathinathanaip paar, athi chinnap payal" ("Look at Kanthimathinathan, an extremely small-minded fellow"); paar-athi becoming paarathi upon conjunction.

One could consider the third possibility that Yuva Gala Paarathi (YGP) is a subtle homage to the late Sri Y. G. Parthasarathy, the patriarch of the family that runs Bharath Kalachar, the organization that awards the Yuva Kala Bharathi title.

Thanks for asking. As they say in the US, there is no such thing as a dumb question. You just proved it.

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 24 Feb 2011, 07:27

cacm wrote:
We are very thankful to Rigveda for his psuedo probability speculations, Life on another planet, his abilty to get inside the brain of the organisers without any fancy stuff like neurons etc as well as his concerns about their ability to cope and his brilliant lesson on elementary school level arithmetic Calculation that ten times something is just obtained by adding ANOTHER ZERO to the original number. MOST ENLIGHTENING post!.......VKV

Neurons or neutrons?

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 24 Feb 2011, 10:51

Neutrons are no longer Fashionble?! VKV

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 24 Feb 2011, 12:34

VKV, is fashion a newly discovered subatomic particle?

What happens when it changes? Does that impact the fabric of existence?

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 24 Feb 2011, 13:30

Nick H wrote:VKV, is fashion a newly discovered subatomic particle?

Very profound.

The gauge fashyon.

Nick you have excelled yourself. I had no idea you had this geek streak in you.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 24 Feb 2011, 17:28

I have a considerable geek streak. I used to a Unix systems manager, complete with beard and sandals (although I had those before I met up with computers).

But, sadly... physics and maths... failed. Both in exams and understanding.

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 24 Feb 2011, 21:53

Nick H wrote:VKV, is fashion a newly discovered subatomic particle?

What happens when it changes? Does that impact the fabric of existence?

Dear Nick,
It might affect the fabric but existence is too profound a topic! At least in Mathematics it is tough thing to prove!....VKV

Muthu Kumaran · Post by **Muthu Kumaran** » 09 Mar 2011, 02:09

Dear reethigowla48,

Kudos to your bravery in raising the issues facing the Atlanta Carnatic music community!!
I can't agree with you more on the need for new blood and innovation. I have posted my thoughts on this subject in another discussion thread since this is relevant only for Atlanta Rasikas. Others are welcome to check it out if you are wondering what's happening in Atlanta ...

Atlanta - Bringing Carnatic Music back into life ...
http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=15893

Muthu Kumaran · Post by **Muthu Kumaran** » 13 Mar 2011, 21:07

rethigowla48,

Using public organizations and ticketed events for promoting a single person is a gross misuse of power by any stretch of imagination. We all understand the problem and I am slightly encouraged by the responses we are getting on this forum.

However, the question of how to objectively measure a person's skill, expertise and fit still remains largely unanswered. Virtually in all other disciplines of science and arts, there are governing bodies and institutes that are universally acknowledged as the authority to measure and certify a person's level of proficiency. 'PE' license for engineers, 'belt' system for karate, 'CPA/CMA' certification for accountants and 'PMP' certification for project managers come to mind. In all these instances, there are set standards of expectation for a person to be placed at a skill level and the governing bodies (which are mostly privately run) oversee and administer these certifications.

In India, A-I-R provides the fundamental system of classifying musicians into 4 grades: B, B-Hi, A and A-Top. In the absence of such a universally accepted system for musicians outside India, we are left with no choice but to let the organizations and people in power positions determine the skill level of individuals (almost always subjectively).

One option would be to figure out f A-I-R can certify musicians outside India. If this is possible, then we’ll have a system of apples-to-apples comparison and will be in a much better position to match visiting artistes with local talent of the same proficiency level.

Any thoughts?

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 13 Mar 2011, 21:31

There are critics, but their usefulness is debatable (as we know: it is regularly debated!). Otherwise, in the arts, the audience is the final judge.