Why don't we have "Misra" ragas in Carnatic music?

[VK RAMAN]

I have heard the name Mishra, but last name Raga could not be found

[arunk]

munirao2001

Firstly, no need for Sir to refer to me )

Secondly, I think what we discussing is completely unrelated to the thread subject in hand, and also IMO karnataka vs carnatic is a silly thing to argue (both are perfectly fine IMO), and so I dont intend to post again.

I have "issues" only with 2 things - mainly because you have stated adherence to fact rather than myth and thus more steeped in objectivity - but I believe you make a few too sweeping generalization and have clubbed them under the umbrella of fact.

1. You say 9th century (800-900AD) but all your examples start 14th century onwards - that is a massive 450 year difference. Besides, sangIta ratnAkara succeeds 9th century it by about 200 years. The theory of it is grama music, one to which we have a hard(er) time correlating the music that came afterwards (like the ones you quote).
2. I do think that it is easier to draw an unbroken line to the music of 14th-16th centuries (and the treatises of ramamatya and vidyaranya), and by the same token harder to continue that line (with the same intensity) to sangita ratnakara as well as much earlier works like bhakti era (as perhaps practiced then). Music of today indeed seems more relatable to that of the 14th-16th centuries. However, one cannot simply dismiss earlier music broadly as you have done. That just seems very convenient - and your selection of 9th century in light of above is wrong and drawn mainly to exclude the known works that precede that line in time. As you probably are well aware, the concept of raga and tala preceded even the bhakti era. I do not think all works then were "music was to support the rituals, worship and prayers" - e.g. ANDAL's works while recited in temples nowadays, in content were highly personal. The same can be said e.g. for many works of nAyanmArs - and I would not be surprised same could be said for works in other languages ((ironically, I would say just from lyrical content, the works of MD are more suited for temples ). Thus we cannot simply claim everyone then composed for singing in temples and for rituals. We cannot also claim in that they didn't pursue music for art sake - there isnt enough evidence for that, and pursuit from a pure art sake I believe is recorded in natya sastra itself. One could easily suppose that later works (e.g of purandara dAsa et. al) werent that different as practiced then - after all from a lyrical content the music of purandara dAsa wasnt that different. But of course that be conjecture - but I argue not that different from your conclusion about earlier works.

Arun

[Rsachi]

In the absence of a clear recorded historical narrative of the development of classical music, we need to conjecture based on the rest of our cultural history.
1. The Bhakti movement took off in a big way from the 10th-11th century. Two great spiritual movements were started by Ramanuja and Madhva. Also Sringeri became a big centre of learning during that time.
2.The shodasha Puja and pancharatra tradition instituted in temples gave an important place for music from dawn to dusk.
3. All the compositional base of CM devolves on bhakti and clearly denounces "secular" or cheapened music. This could not have been an invention of later composers. If anything, they needed to work hard for a living compared to during the better times of Vijayanagara. empire.
4. Jayadeva composed his erotic poetry as Gita Govinda =clearly an element of spirituality was de rigueur.
5. If you see sculpture, painting, even festivals, everything in India revolved around prayer and ritual and the temple was bigger than the palace. Especially in south India.

So we need to reckon that the devotional poets and musicians of Vijayanagara, Maratha kingdoms played a big role in the development of music. I do not know if Dravidian musicians worked in a secular mode. I doubt it very much. I was led to the story of a Saivite Saint who mastered the flute and played Om Namah Shivaya on it!
Aanaayar (12c CE)

[arunk]

> 1. The Bhakti movement took off in a big way from the 10th-11th century. Two great spiritual movements were started by Ramanuja and Madhva. Also Sringeri became a big centre of learning during that time
Actually the bhakti movement of Alwars and Nayanmars preceded this time by a few centuries (rough dating range is 5th-8th or so I think). That is the "big way" as far as deep south was concerned. I may be mistaken but I think the Ramanuja period could be viewed as almost a revival phase (rather than initial).

Also just because something is "devotional" as in directed to Lord, doesnt mean it was not composed with artistry in mind (although that is the conclusion we all like to draw at w.r.t almost all the composers). Just like later composers used religion and spirituality as a vehicle to evolve music, it is quite possible the same thing existed in the same neck of the woods prior also.

(very early Tamil Sangam poetry was secular - it is possible that some were sung in panns but I dont know of any direct evidence - but I also didnt have these in my mind w.r.t this and earlier post)

Arun

[Rsachi]

Ramanuja - Encyclopedia Britannica:

Ramanuja, also called Ramanujacharya, or Ilaiya Perumal (Tamil: Ageless Perumal [God]) (born c. 1017, Shriperumbudur, India—died 1137, Shrirangam), South Indian Brahman theologian and philosopher, the single most influential thinker of devotional Hinduism. After a long pilgrimage, Ramanuja settled in Shrirangam, where he organized temple worship and founded centres to disseminate his doctrine of devotion to the god Vishnu and his consort Shri (Lakshmi). He provided an intellectual basis for the practice of bhakti (devotional worship) in three major commentaries: the Vedartha-samgraha (on the Vedas, the earliest scriptures of Hinduism), the Shri-bhashya (on the Brahma-sutras), and the Bhagavadgita-bhashya (on the Bhagavadgita).

Link: http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/top ... 5/Ramanuja

Madhva- Wikipedia

Madhva Acharya (Sanskrit pronunciation: [məd̪ʱʋɑːˈtʃɑːrjə]; born Vasudeva 1238–1317 CE), also known as Purna Prajña and Ananda Tīrtha, was a Hindu philosopher and the chief proponent of the Dvaita school of Vedanta. Madhva himself called his philosophy as "Tattvavada" meaning realism.It is one of the three most influential Vedānta philosophies. Madhvācārya was one of the important philosophers during the Bhakti movement. He was a pioneer in many ways, going against standard conventions and norms. While in his teenage years he was initiated as a Sanyasin by Acyutapreksha, an ascetic of the Ekadandi order. Later he toured India several times engaging in philosophical debates and winning converts to his school of thought. Madhva composed thirty seven works in Sanskrit. His greatest is considered to be the Anu-vyakhyana, a critical exposition of the philosophy of the Brahma Sutras.
Madhva established the Krishna temple at Udupi and entrusted the worship at the temple to eight ascetic disciples each of whom were first heads of the eight monasteries called Ashta Mathas of Udupi

Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madhvacharya

[arasi]

When I read Arun's earlier post, I wondered about the Sangam period. He mentions it in his second post.

Tamizh Sangam period existed in the third, fourth century, and we learn they had many kinds of vINAs, flutes and other instruments. They had verses (paN) which pANars sang. What do we make out of that?

[vgovindan]

Story of Paranjoti Munivar - General in the Kingdom of Narasimha Varman (630-668). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paranjothi

He has written a treatise called 'tiruviLaiyADal purANam' - A film was also made in the same name - Sivaji Ganesan was the hero. In this treatise, there are two chapters -

viRagu viTra paDalam - Chapter on Selling Firewood - Story about music competition between a North Indian Musician - Hema Natha Bhagavata and bANa pattirar (devotional musician in the court of King Raja Raja Pandian)
http://temple.dinamalar.com/news_detail.php?id=2207

isai vAdu venra paDalam - chapter on Winning Music Competition - between a Musician from yAzhpANam - present day Northern Sri Lanka and the wife of above said bANa pattirar
http://temple.dinamalar.com/news_detail.php?id=2204

These two are in prose (Tamil) form. However, the verse form (Tamil) is available here -
http://www.shaivam.org/tamil/sta_tiruvilaiyadal_u.htm

I am sorry that all these materials are in Tamil.
This is only the tip of the iceberg. I can quote other sources too - probably they too are in Tamil.

This will make people to understand how ancient is musical tradition - as per Tamil literature.

In regard to bhakti movement, it is a fallacy to say that it was started with Ramanuja and Madhva (they revived, yes). Anyone who has gone through Bhagavatam would know how ancient is bhakti tradition and how music is connected with it. As regards bhakti only, one should go through the poems of Adi Sankara (8th century if not earlier). He is considered as 'antar-Sakta - bahir-Saiva - vyavahArEshu vaishNava'.
http://www.ramanuja.org/sv/bhakti/archi ... /0077.html

There are too many misconceptions - I am appalled.

[arunk]

vgv sir,

(from what I gather) paranjOthi the general from 7th century is not the same as paranjOthi munivar (17th century) - the latter is supposed to have composed tiruviLaiyADal purANam.

Arun

[vgovindan]

arun,
You are right. But Varaguna Pandia and Raja Raja Pandia (the then kings of Madurai) are stated to belong to 9th century.
http://ta.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E0%AE%B5% ... 9%E0%AF%8D
This Varaguna Pandian is called the 2nd Varaguna Pandian who ruled in 9th century. Therefore, this may either be 1st or 2nd one. If he is the 1st one, then it goes still back.

And tiruviLaiyADal purANam is the Tamil translation of Halasya Mahatmya which is found in Skanda Purana.
http://ta.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E0%AE%A4% ... E%E0%AF%8D

Please also refer to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Tamil_music in regard to names of Ragas in Ancient Tamil Musical tradition.

[Rsachi]

I am extremely happy that we are all beginning to agree that there are too many misconceptions, myths and prejudices all around. In the middle of this if we educate ourselves a little also, it is divine grace.

The fact that Bhagavatam itself existed long before Sankara himself, shows that the Bhakti tradition was in existence. I am often reading portions of Ramayana, Bhagavadgita, Upanishads. All state several aspects of bhakti.

At the same time, history tells us Buddhism and Jainism took hold of India in a big way for many centuries in the earlyCE. . Adi Sankara is supposed to have restored the Vedic religious tradition. The earlier effects of Jainism and Buddhism were to weaken many core aspects of Hinduism including the concept of the personal God.

What did Ramanuja and Madhva do in their respective dates and regions of influence? Build on the wonderful work of Sankara in restoring a number of traditions. A study of their works and their regions of influence and religious centres clearly shows their magnificent contribution to the bhakti movement all over India. That had its due impact on classical arts without any doubt or misconception.

There must have been some big reasons for the step function of impact of works done by PD and others on CM. It will be fascinating to methodically remove those influences and trace the remaining original Sangam and other period classical forms. At the same time, even the quotations from Sri VG show the cross infuences of music and language in those early centuries itself. Vedic gods, Sanskrit, Aryan concepts, all seem to have been influencing the traditions in the south for 20 centuries. We have to add the economic and social influences of thriving kingdoms and cultures along major river systems.

The earliest Kannada literature is from Jain and Buddhist scholars. Kannada script is said to have evolved from Brahmi script. Someone told me even early Tamil works like Tirukkural have Jain elements.

[vgovindan]

The grass roots of what is now called Carnatic Music are to be sought in the music of the ancient Tamils. The Tamils did not give any specific name to the music obtaining during the Sangam age and called it merely as ‘Isai’ or music. The term ‘Carnatic Music’ came into currency only recently. According to Chatura Kallinatha mentioned earlier, the areas lying between the rivers Krishna in the north and Kaveri in the south were known as the ‘Karnataka Desa’ after they came under the sovereignty of the Vijayanagar empire. This demarcation included almost the whole of Tamil Nadu and large portions of Kannada and Telugu speaking areas. The music of South India is the common property of all the four states now called Tamil Nadu, Kerala, Karnataka and Andhra.

The most ancient literature describing South Indian music is, however, to be found in Tamil, particularly the Tolkappiam, Silappadikaram and Kallidam and their commentaries. These show that the Tamils were a highly musical people, had a well developed system of music and were familiar with the sol-fa method, concordant and discordant notes and other acoustic phenomena. They knew that new musical scales could be produced by a modal shift of tonic note and without the help of any gadgets, they had discovered that there are 22 Srutis in an octave.

The early classical music of the Tamils was essentially devotional and consisted of the Tevaram hymns composed by Nayanmars (Shaivites) and Alvars (Vaishnavites). The Ragas to which these hymns had been set were called ‘Panns’ in Tamil but strangely enough many of them had Sanskrit names like Gandharam, kaushikam, Megharagam and Panchamam. The Tevaram music is still being sung in temples in Tamil Nadu while in other parts of India no records are available to show which songs were being sung and in which Ragas, till we come to the twelfth century when Jayadeva composed his ‘Gita Govinda’.

The Unifying Role of Indian Music - Sangita Kala Acharya - TS Parthasarathy -
http://carnatica.net/special/tsp-unify2.htm

[Rsachi]

Thank you. Excellent lucidity. I once met Sri TSP during 80s and he was a very impressive person..

[varsha]

That brings us back to the question ....
Why don't we have "Misra" ragas in Carnatic music?


http://www.mediafire.com/listen/7k7ongq ... i_Todi.mp3
Why dont we have more of such ragas tuned into CM/KM .
Voleti has tuned one in this .