Payments to CM musicians (especially in the US)

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 28 Jul 2015, 21:39

With daddy or husband paying for it, they have 2-3 piercings in each ear with diamond studs!

What about those who earn their own money? If they do not lend their ears, that does not bode well for diamond merchants

That tribe is increasing and increasing quite rapidly.

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 28 Jul 2015, 21:40

On Line Bullying! Stop it.

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 28 Jul 2015, 23:51

harimau wrote:"sureshvvkvchellappa... are you doing a thenjasattai impression?

thenjasattai is rvkrishnamurthy in another form.
Harimau,
THANKS FOR EXPOSING THE FRAUD & PROVING WHO THE GUY IS!.....I CONGRAGULATE YOU. VKV[/quote]
Your acumen, sir, is something I can only aspire to.
Your post #20 smoked out the professor from Kalamazoo who then confessed to knowing all about honoraria to artists in India as well as North America. Then why was he raising the issue except to slam his favourite target?
It took me another 2 days of cogitation to figure out where he was coming from whereas you could smell him out instantly!
Dear H,
it is really horrible waste of time even reading what the guy writes! YOU are spending your time USEFULLY & THAT AUTOMATICALLY PRECLUDES WASTING TIME ON GUYS LIKE THIS ONE.
I got involved because of the UTTER LIES he was writing under pretext of knowing every one in Cleveland Aradhana Committee. He certainly does not know me- I have been intimately involved from DAY ONE-....HIS RANTS & LIES are UNNECESSARILY WASTING OTHERS TIME AS I volunteered to ANSWER & ELUCIDATE THINGS BECAUSE CLEVELAND is CURRENTLY INVOLVED IN SUCH A MAMMOTH SCALE.
I was going to write: IAEA where he claimed he was going! Whatever happened? If you go thru' every post you will find so many incredible non-sense; I feel sorry he is ACTIVELY pulling down his talented son who is educated, cultured & refined. I even directly wrote here to stay away from his non-sense for the sake of his son.....VKV

rvkrishnamurthy · Post by **rvkrishnamurthy** » 29 Jul 2015, 05:14

"$1 should be Re. 1 or should be Rs. 60 but once you choose a specific rate, apply it not just to the North American sabhas but also the cheapskate Indians who buy concert tickets or memberships"
The day 1$ = 1 Rupee, no CM musicians from India will bother to come to the US or teach skype classes. And it is very understandable. They will be stupid to do that. It is the exchange rate that keeps all of us immigrants attracted to the US. Now many MNC's in India pay the employees salaries comparable to the US and they are happy going back as long as their kids are young. The so called "reverse immigration". Go figure.

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 29 Jul 2015, 22:15

rvkrishnamurthy wrote:"$1 should be Re. 1 or should be Rs. 60 but once you choose a specific rate, apply it not just to the North American sabhas but also the cheapskate Indians who buy concert tickets or memberships"
The day 1$ = 1 Rupee, no CM musicians from India will bother to come to the US or teach skype classes. And it is very understandable. They will be stupid to do that. It is the exchange rate that keeps all of us immigrants attracted to the US. Now many MNC's in India pay the employees salaries comparable to the US and they are happy going back as long as their kids are young. The so called "reverse immigration". Go figure.

I am NOT talking about why Carnatic musicians are getting $1200 whereas Anup Jhalota is getting $20,000 for a concert.

I am talking about the fact that you can charge at the most $20 a ticket in the US whereas Music Academy can charge Rs 1,000 a ticket and people pay that gladly.

The day you can charge $1,000 a ticket, that will be the day Rohan gets $10,000 per Carnatic concert as opposed to a share of $1,200.

Your subtext here is that the Carnatic musicians are underpaid because the organisers are siphoning money away for their personal use, money that should have gone to the artist.

That Is what you would want people to believe.

PS. In 1973-74, I was selling tickets for $3 for Carnatic concerts and the artists were being paid $300. Using that ratio, a ticket price of $20 can support payment of $2,000 per concert today. That is for the entire ensemble.

So, get your cheapskate Indian "Rasikas" to pay more for a ticket before you start attacking organisers for not recognising Carnatic musicians by paying them tens of thousands of dollars.

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 29 Jul 2015, 22:28

rvkrishnamurthy wrote:Several years ago Rohan played for a leading Indian artist, a prospective Sangeetha Kalanidhi next year, in a city in Iowa. We drove 9 hours just to have the privilege of playing for the artist and spend the night with the organizer. I asked how much it cost them to arrange the concert and he said "1200$". That is fine and we know what the artist paid Rohan out of this 1200. Then the organizer said the following week they were having a performance by Anoop Jaolota and they are paying him 20,000 dollars! This is no fairy tale. This is what they openly admitted to me. Of course I did not challenge them on this discriminatory practice.

Here is a tale worth repeating.

A Hindusthani musician was sponsored for a concert at Hamsadhwani and the sponsor shelled out Rs 100,000. The entire amount was handed over to the musician.

When the tup-tup artist heard about it, he went ballistic and wrote an open letter to RRC, the secretary of Hamsadhwani, complaining this was discriminatory. RRC told him that he could find his own sponsor who would pay Rs 100,000 for a concert and RRC would hand over the entire amount to the tup-tup artist.

Needless to say, nobody was willing to sponsor a Carnatic concert at that kind of price!

Anup Jhalota attracts a crowd amounting to thousands. Carnatic musicians get more like 200 in most cities.

Don't expect comparable honoraria.

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 29 Jul 2015, 23:40

Rsachi wrote:Harimau,
Your sudden high level of engagement in the forum can mean
1. A tiger is on the rampage around us (they spotted some near Blr!)
2. You have purchased a new 4G phablet
3. You are not getting your daily feed (good music I mean)

Which one is it, sir?
By the way i started listening to some great DKJ music..

You ought to go into the fortune-telling business.

No. 2 it is!

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 30 Jul 2015, 00:19

Is Phablet a common use digital gizmo normally used in India without a desk top or laptop.

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 30 Jul 2015, 03:27

VKR,
A phablet is an embarrassingly large slate-like glass object with a shiny bright surface that engages the owner's attention oblivious to goings-on around including interesting fauna and flora which would normally turn heads.

When powered up and 4Ged, it is a gateway to far-off lands and far-out ideas, music, books and movies, news and views. You will find the owner smile or grimace or frown occasionally from that immersed world. Suddenly the being will hear the phablet make a funny little sound, the finger that was pecking at the phablet's face will slide on its cheek obligingly. You will then find me (the being) hold it up against my own cheek and make sounds as if I am in conversation with someone. Alternatively the phablet may be functioning as a video watching screen or even a window to video conversation.
Phablets are sized 5 inches or more across and have a full HD resolution, often better than a TV screen for watching movies. With stereo sound and lots of apps, they are reported to be bedmates for their owners (>70% in one survey!) india is the fastest growing market and a couple of days ago Lenovo K3 Note sold 50000 pieces online in 10 seconds on Flipkart!

I do 90% of my work on a phablet despite having a litter of computers at home. It's simply more handy (and addictive). With a good pair of headphones and a graphic equaliser, it has studio sound too! And a micro SD card at ₹ 2000 that holds 15000 songs or hours of videos & so on. And onboard cameras with flash etc...
which has all but killed the market for PCs, tablets, and point & shoot cameras.

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 30 Jul 2015, 04:40

Is this something similar to Ipad, Microsoft Surface, etc. which do not serve the purpose of phone but bigger Iphone/smart phone versions can serve all the purposes. Thanks for elucidation of the gizmo.

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 30 Jul 2015, 06:37

It sounds as though the word is a synthesis of "phone" and "tablet".. Would the huge iPhone 6 or whatever is biggest qualify as a phablet?

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 30 Jul 2015, 08:09

Ranganayaki wrote:It sounds as though the word is a synthesis of "phone" and "tablet".. Would the huge iPhone 6 or whatever is biggest qualify as a phablet?

"Phone"+"tablet"="Phablet" just as "sheep"+"people"="sheeple".

The iPhone 6Plus is not wide enough though some people may think of it as a Phablet.

Let us see what September brings. A new iPhone 7 is rumoured to be in the offing.

ramamantra · Post by **ramamantra** » 30 Jul 2015, 08:41

harimau wrote: PS. In 1973-74, I was selling tickets for $3 for Carnatic concerts and the artists were being paid $300.

In contrast, in 2000s, a friend of mine who went to US on some fellowship was offered a mere $50 to sing for a local NRI dancer at Boston. He refused as the amount was too much of a pittance, of course not citing that as the reason to her. Maybe it was a one-off (private exploitation), not payment norms. I don't know. The gig was not in any US sabha but a private event. Just a bit of info.

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 30 Jul 2015, 09:13

Ranganayaki,
Yes iPhone 6S, Xperia Z, Nexus 6, Galaxy 6 etc all qualify as phablets. The definition in Webopedia:
A phrase used to describe a half-smartphone and half-tablet mobile device (a phone/tablet hybrid). A phablet is a small pocket-sized mobile device that is a bit larger than the size of an average smartphone, with a touch screen ranging in size from 5 inches (e.g. the Sony Xperia Z) to 6.1 inches (e.g. the Huawei Ascend Mate device).

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 30 Jul 2015, 18:31

Ramamantra and Harimau:

People and habits are same in any part of the world and if you are offering a service, please let the recipient of service know your expectation for singing and you will get what you expect; so no disappointment on both sides.

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 30 Jul 2015, 21:41

rvkrishnamurthy wrote:
.................
I am also talking about the so-called "Mecca" of CM, Chennai. I had shared this earlier but at the risk of repetition I will do it again. Not long ago I was in a 6 PM concert in one of the oldest and venerable sabhas in Chennai. I knew the sabha secretary so well we could discuss anything. I asked him how much they pay the accompanists, especially mridangam , ghtam and khnajira. He said " if it is Vellore or Raghu we pay 1500 rupees." Can you digest it? Vellore and Raghu worth 1500 rupees! He went on to lament "Today's ghatam player is asking for 800 rupees. What nonsense". And remember the ghatam player is today's number one or two in that field! I asked him what 800 rupees can bye him when a meal costs 100 rupees. He had no answer. I had a worse experience when I listened to a main singer from Kerala ( a child prodigy when he was in Chennai) who performed again in a leading sabha in T. Nagar. He could not even break even with what they paid him (second class train fare, hotel near Chennai Central, auto charges etc). I ended up paying him 500 rupees as a gesture and he gleefully accepted it.

Why don't you cut out the middleman, otherwise known as the organiser or Sabha secretary and other officials, and get into the organising business?

I don't mean you but the musicians themselves.

Like a musician did on the very first day of 2015, bringing out an innovative business model that will soon be a case study in business schools all over the world.

Essentially, the musician told the Sabha that he would pay all the expenses and pay the accompanists and asked the Sabha to act as the juiceman -- the person who squeezes money out of people -- and organise and conduct the ticket sales and hand over the money to him. The usual ticket prices of Rs 200, 500, and 1000 were jacked up to Rs 500, 1000, and 1,500. The sheeple were of course unfazed at these prices.

A few days before the concert, the ticket prices changed to Rs 1,000, 2,000 and 3,000. At that point some of the sheeple rebelled and the first 3 rows remained substantially empty during the concert.

It takes a trained management specialist and cost accountant to come up with this innovative technique. At least, an accountant of some sort.

But so long as he has not patented this business model, it is available for employment by other musicians. Or, he may make it available free as a professional courtesy.

PS. When this musician tries to perform the same trick for a foreign tour, I think the local organisers should tell him to sponsor his own visas too. That would shut down any hopes of a foreign tour as the US Immigration folks want to see a local organiser they can hold responsible for payment of the US income tax.

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 30 Jul 2015, 21:52

VK RAMAN wrote:Ramamantra and Harimau:

People and habits are same in any part of the world and if you are offering a service, please let the recipient of service know your expectation for singing and you will get what you expect; so no disappointment on both sides.

All Indian musicians who tour the US negotiate in advance with the sponsor of their tour what their total honorarium is going to be. The tour sponsor negotiates with the local organiser in each city how much he expects from them.

The local organiser in every city has to figure out the optimal ticket price.

In the early 1970's, it WAS $3 a head.

Today, it is not more than $20 in most places.

For pop musicians such as Anup Jhalota and the like, there will usually be differential pricing: from $500 for front-row seating with post-concert schmoozing with the artist back-stage included to $30 for backbenchers.

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 31 Jul 2015, 00:59

ramamantra wrote: In contrast, in 2000s, a friend of mine who went to US on some fellowship was offered a mere $50 to sing for a local NRI dancer at Boston. He refused as the amount was too much of a pittance, of course not citing that as the reason to her. Maybe it was a one-off (private exploitation), not payment norms. I don't know. The gig was not in any US sabha but a private event. Just a bit of info.

Private event. The dance may have been just to showcase a few students. No ticket sales. Obviously $50 is out of pocket for the organiser.

If dancers charge $25 an hour to teach dance, they may have figured that $50 for 2 hours is not out of line.

Not justifying the measly offer but just thinking aloud.

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 31 Jul 2015, 01:04

Rsachi wrote:Ranganayaki,
Yes iPhone 6S, Xperia Z, Nexus 6, Galaxy 6 etc all qualify as phablets. The definition in Webopedia:
A phrase used to describe a half-smartphone and half-tablet mobile device (a phone/tablet hybrid). A phablet is a small pocket-sized mobile device that is a bit larger than the size of an average smartphone, with a touch screen ranging in size from 5 inches (e.g. the Sony Xperia Z) to 6.1 inches (e.g. the Huawei Ascend Mate device).

Sony Experia Z Ultra at 6.4".

Now that is a monster Phablet before it treads into the 7" iPad Mini's territory.

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 31 Jul 2015, 08:02

Harimau,
If you open a thread in the Lounge about "Phablet excesses among rasikas" I promise to share my learning there (been smartphone guy from 2002

)

rvkrishnamurthy · Post by **rvkrishnamurthy** » 31 Jul 2015, 08:39

One of the genuine complaints I get from CM organizers in the US is this. " These CM musicians come every year to US and ask us to arrange concerts. Obviously the local CM community is not very amused about it. On the other hand the Hindusthani musicians visit every 3-4 years and there is lot of anticipation about their visit". I guess this is very understandable. I have myself tried to arrange concerts by CM musicians in and around where I live and the they tell the same thing. "Oh this musician performed last year and there is no way we can do it again this year". I even contacted 5-6 major organizers in the US and told that they should phase out the concert tour arrangement of CM musicians from India. I said" call them every three years but pay them handsomely. So they don't have to ask for a tour every year" . By the way Cleveland also can take a look at this option. Nothing happened. Anyway I am not in that role in any more.

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 31 Jul 2015, 09:16

[quote="rvkrishnamurthy"] I even contacted 5-6 major organizers in the US and told that they should phase out the concert tour arrangement of CM musicians from India. I said" call them every three years but pay them handsomely. So they don't have to ask for a tour every year" . By the way Cleveland also can take a look at this option. Nothing happened. Anyway I am not in that role in any more. THEN WHY BLABBER?
WHEN WILL YOU STOP YOUR IGNORANT STATEMENTS & POOR UNDERSTANDING OF CLEVELAND?
Cleveland stopped arranging concert tours long long ago. Your POOR ATTEMPTS TO PUT DOWN CLEVELAND THRU' YOUR IGNORANCE MAKES EVEN ONCE IN A MILLION GOOD SUGGESTION FROM YOU WORTHLESS. VKV

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 31 Jul 2015, 18:48

rvkrishnamurthy wrote:?...I said" call them every three years but pay them handsomely. So they don't have to ask for a tour every year" . By the way Cleveland also can take a look at this option. Nothing happened. Anyway I am not in that role in any more.

If you call them once in 3 years, do you think the ticket prices can be raised to $60?

No, it will still be $20 only.

So, "paying them handsomely" means somehow the organiser should triple the honorarium while admission cannot be raised.

You really want a philanthropist/organiser. Unfortunately, while most organisers also qualify as philanthropists, they don't have deep enough pockets.

So you can do what some artists do: limit a tour to 4 cities, demand and get outrageous payments, and the next year find another sucker to sponsor their tour!

rvkrishnamurthy · Post by **rvkrishnamurthy** » 02 Aug 2015, 08:43

"Cleveland stopped arranging concert tours long long ago. Your POOR ATTEMPTS TO PUT DOWN CLEVELAND THRU' YOUR IGNORANCE MAKES EVEN ONCE IN A MILLION GOOD SUGGESTION FROM YOU WORTHLESS. VKV"

Here we go again. I do agree with you on this one and I retract my statement. I do believe Cleveland is not involved in concert tours. You are more informed. I do apologize. But that doesn't make my feelings about how that organization is going about these days, trying to milk money at every opportunity by creating events that has nothing to do with Thyagaraja. Imagine Carnatic jazz by people who have no idea what jazz is. Or trying to "conduct" fusion music (whatever that is).Conducting is not waving your hands in the air as I saw once in Cleveland. It is a serious business.Serious conductors go on to get a PhD to establish themselves.
I am sure these are not the ideas of the well meaning founders of the organization, but some "so called event mangers" who have gotten into the fray and they are controlling it. I have the greatest respect for Sundaram, Balu and Natarajan and they know it.

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 02 Aug 2015, 08:59

rvk, IM DO AGREE WITH SOME OF YOUR POINTS.
THE FESTIVAL IS PRACTICALLY IMPLEMENTED BY VOLUNTEERS WHO COME UP WITH DIFFERENT IDEAS. THEY ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE CONTENT. IF YOU NOTICE YOU ARE FORCED YOURSELF TO PRAISE YOUR SON'S COLLABORATIONS WITH WESTERN MUSICIANS. MORE POWER TO HIM. HOW DO YOU THINK RAVI SHANKAR BECAME A WORLD ICON?
WHY DONT YOU VOLUNTEER TO COME UP WITH SOME ACTIVITY OR PROJECT. THE COMMITTEE WILL VOTE ON IT HONESTLY. NO BODY TAKES OVER THINGS THE WAY YOU ARE WRITING. CAN YOU COME UP WITH IDEAS TO RAISE 250K U.S.DOLLARS EVERY YEAR?
DON'T DRAG THYAGABRAHMAM'S NAME INTO YOUR MUD. VKV

rvkrishnamurthy · Post by **rvkrishnamurthy** » 02 Aug 2015, 09:09

"CAN YOU COME UP WITH IDEAS TO RAISE 250K U.S.DOLLARS EVERY YEAR?"
Why should you raise this money? For whom? Can't you live with in your means and do a good job? That was what was happening for 25 years in Cleveland and every body loved it. Now I hear lot of complaints and protestations. Any way this is a pointless discussion. I think we should get to know each other. Who knows we may enjoy each other. Despite or differences we may end up as good friends. Or even after becoming friends we may fight. That is ok. Here is my number. You can call me 269-547976.

rvkrishnamurthy · Post by **rvkrishnamurthy** » 02 Aug 2015, 09:10

"CAN YOU COME UP WITH IDEAS TO RAISE 250K U.S.DOLLARS EVERY YEAR?"
Why should you raise this money? For whom? Can't you live with in your means and do a good job? That was what was happening for 25 years in Cleveland and every body loved it. Now I hear lot of complaints and protestations. Any way this is a pointless discussion. I think we should get to know each other. Who knows we may enjoy each other. Despite or differences we may end up as good friends. Or even after becoming friends we may fight. That is ok. Here is my number. You can call me 269-547976

Sorry. The number is 269-547-9796

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 02 Aug 2015, 09:14

rvk, I have better things to do than calling you. My only interest is in making Rohan's talents blossom & PREVENT your poor judgement preventing it thru' your inopportune pronouncements. VKV

rvkrishnamurthy · Post by **rvkrishnamurthy** » 02 Aug 2015, 09:51

"rvk, I have better things to do than calling you. My only interest is in making Rohan's talents blossom & PREVENT your poor judgement preventing it thru' your inopportune pronouncements. VKV"
I think I just sent a reply to you on another posting. I respect your sentiments. But don't worry about Rohan. The Rasikas posters are not going to decide his career. He is doing just fine.

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 02 Aug 2015, 18:38

Hey Rohan's Dad,

You still are trying to avoid my question of how to pay Carnatic musicians "handsomely by arranging concerts once in three years instead of every year" if ticket prices are still $20,

Any idea of how this works? Like in Quantum Physics electrons gaining energy by jumping orbits, you think somehow money increases in value?

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 05 Aug 2015, 09:39

We the descendents of tirumanjana vIdhi ( figuratively all the bramhadEya villages ) having moved out to urban sprawl across the world - cannot expect musicians to take tyAgaraja as the standard. We live in an era where a newspaper man needs to insure himself before he goes around the city.

Not to say that we need to splurge money on our artistes - they need to have as much comparable financial dignity as the community they serve. For us music is as much important as the musicians themselves - and it is not always all about them - sometimes they are full of themselves.

Whatever that ensures that dignity without compromising music - either side of it ( lower or too much money) can do that - is the gold standard.

What that is - is up for a constant negotiation - and all social and other controlling factors are legitimate to be employed by both sides - it should not be just about marketability and comparison to other systems of music is not going to help us.

Educating rasikAs about the nature of our music will go a long way in reducing anomalous behavior we see sometimes in the artistes they support.

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 05 Aug 2015, 18:54

rvkrishnamurthy wrote:"CAN YOU COME UP WITH IDEAS TO RAISE 250K U.S.DOLLARS EVERY YEAR?"
Why should you raise this money? For whom? Can't you live with in your means and do a good job? That was what was happening for 25 years in Cleveland and every body loved it. Now I hear lot of complaints and protestations. Any way this is a pointless discussion. I think we should get to know each other. Who knows we may enjoy each other. Despite or differences we may end up as good friends. Or even after becoming friends we may fight. That is ok. Here is my number. You can call me 269-547976.

One does not need to be a mathematical genius nor does one have to know the internal workings of any organisation to work out some simple computation.

Let us say 80 artists come from India for the Cleveland Festival.

The airfare would amount to 80 x $1,500 = $120,000.

An average of 10 days for 40 rooms (if artists double up in a room) at $100 a night works out to $40,000.

Then there is the free food that actually costs money to buy the ingredients and pay for the cook, etc.

There are production costs associated with a dance program in terms of costumes, backdrops, etc.

After all these expenses are paid for, one as to pay the artists their honoraria.

If that averages to $500 a person, that would be $40,000.

Already, a figure of $200,000 is there and one has to add the costs for food, dance production, etc., in addition to car rental, gas, insurance etc., for about 12 days.

So, the figure of $250,000 is not as far-fetched and outlandish as you seem to imagine. You can quibble about perhaps a few thousand dollars but it all amounts to rounding errors.

Your objection to calling it Thyagaraja Aradhana is sustainable. By that token, I could get up in the middle of concerts if anyone dared to sing a krithi by Deekshithar or Syama Sastri because the festival is called "Thyagaraja Aradhana"!

It seems to have evolved from being a music-only festival to include dances, dance dramas, etc.

A good alternative name might be "Cleveland Cultural Festival". My personal preference is the "The Great Annual Cleveland Tamasha". Yours might be "Rohan-less Uncultured Festival"!

Your question, "Why do you raise the money? For whom?", has your usual sub-text that the money goes into the pockets of the organisers since it is not going to Rohan.

Just come out and say so instead of beating around the bush.

PS. I am surprised you didn't suggest holding the Festival once in 3 years so that they can make more handsome payments to artists!

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 05 Aug 2015, 20:33

Dear Harimau,
THANKS for your NUMBERS. I had presented EXACT NUMBERS AT MEETINGS IN CHENNAI & USA A FEW YEARS BACK BUT CANNOT BE DOING IT EVERY YEAR. AS YOU HAVE CLEARLY SHOWN THE ARITHMETIC IS SIMPLE AND THE ECONOMICS DATA ARE ALSO PRETTY STRAIGHTFORWARD.
I THANK YOU VERY MUCH & I HOPE YOUR NEUTRAL ASSESSMENT MAKES THINGS CLEARER. VKV

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 09 Aug 2015, 08:37

There was reference in one of the posts about HM Musicians and particularly Ghazal singers. A mention was made about persons like Anup Jalota commanding fees of $20,000/- I do not know whether the quote I am giving here under will give a clue as to why such high fee is commanded by them. I happened to watch an old Hindi Movie 'Daddy', wherein Anupam Kher acts as singer. The following clip has a small dialogue 3.15 mins to 3.32 mins. I hope everyone understands Hindi.

https://youtu.be/He3aQbviZFM

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 09 Aug 2015, 09:00

May be there is enough of an open 'dialog' here that we may at last get past the super animosity created by the cleveland bashing posts by RVK over the years and may be it has come down to the good old vanilla animosity!! Reason for me to state this is, all that yearly nastiness left bitter taste in everyone's mouth that no one wanted to talk about related issues in an open fashion.

Not sure if I am setting the context right or not, but let me ask this question. My hope is we can talk about this without bringing in RVK or answering his accusations ( or non-accusations accusations ) directly or indirectly or antagonizing him for his past deeds!

Phew. That is a long prelude!!

Is it possible to run an aradhana at the Cleveland scale and break even? The one constant thing we hear is that Cleveland Aradhana is always struggling for funds and every year its costs are more than the revenues thus running a deficit. Using Harimau's example, if the deficit is $25,000, can you breakeven if you bring in 70 artists instead of 80? It may be naive to use a static analysis to believe that revenues will stay the same if the costs are reduced. So that is really the question in my mind. Having run the aradhana for so many decades, you probably have a pretty good idea how much money you are going to collect, is it possible to arrange the cost side so that the deficits if any are not too much. I am afraid the answer is that if you do that it will not be the Cleveland Aradhana we all know and love. If so, that is an answer alright, whether one likes it or not.

hnbhagavan · Post by **hnbhagavan** » 09 Aug 2015, 09:42

The answer to this would be to collect corpus fund (may be already there)and supplement this with collection in the form of donation,ticket etc.However building corpus fund is a one time effort which is easily said than done.In Bangalore the organisers of Ramanavami as well as all the organisers complain about the financial crunch.This is a universal problem.In the last years Ramanavami,It was openly informed that Sri Vijaya Siva accepted a huge cut in his remuneration.

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 09 Aug 2015, 10:02

vasanthakokilam wrote:May be there is enough of an open 'dialog' here that we may at last get past the super animosity created by the cleveland bashing posts by RVK over the years and may be it has come down to the good old vanilla animosity!! Reason for me to state this is, all that yearly nastiness left bitter taste in everyone's mouth that no one wanted to talk about related issues in an open fashion.
Not sure if I am setting the context right or not, but let me ask this question.

Is it possible to run an aradhana at the Cleveland scale and break even? The one constant thing we hear is that Cleveland Aradhana is always struggling for funds and every year its costs are more than the revenues thus running a deficit. Using Harimau's example, if the deficit is $25,000, can you break even if you bring in 70 artists instead of 80? It may be naive to use a static analysis to believe that revenues will stay the same if the costs are reduced. So that is really the question in my mind. Having run the aradhana for so many decades, you probably have a pretty good idea how much money you are going to collect, is it possible to arrange the cost side so that the deficits if any are not too much. I am afraid the answer is that if you do that it will not be the Cleveland Aradhana we all know and love. If so, that is an answer alright, whether one likes it or not.

Dear VK, A BRIEF ANALYSIS BELOW:
We know the donations from private rasikas who attend the festival is around 60K- these have NOT CHANGED FOR A LONG TIME.
The rest has to be made up by SPONSORS who are not willing to contribute unless the scale & scope is like it currently is. Somehow with CREATIVE FINANCING=BORROWING TEMPORARILY FROM WELL WISHERS ETC + SPONSORS FOR THE PAST TWENTY YEARS cleveland has survived & the hope is to somehow ATTRACT A SILICON VALLEY TYPE MILLIONAIRE which has not happened yet without making TOO MANY COMPROMISES. EACH ARTIST TYPICALLY
COSTS (FOR JUST ONE CONCERT IN CLEVELAND COSTS: 6K & ROUGHLY 20 K FOR A GROUP OF 3. SO ONLY 3 CONCERTS AS OPPOSED TO CURRENT 125 CONCERTS USING ABILITY TO GET SERVICES AT A FAR CHEAPER COST CAN BE HELD.. The reduced scale one is better off just getting a couple of groups & this is already being done by many sponsors IN N.A.. I my self shifted to the LARGE GROUP AS IT DEFINITELY HAS MANY MANY ARTISTIC ADVANTAGES + many volunteers serve free + financially contribute & MORE THAN ANYTHING ELSE THE YOUTH HERE HAS SHOWN ENORMOUS INTERTEST+
ABILITY...vkv
The Answer is NOT OBVIOUS! WELCOME SUGGESTIONS.... From what I have seen when the current group gets tired or old etc ALL THE EFFORTS TO GET IT TO THIS STAGE WILL GO TO NAUGHT & IT WILL INDEED BE A PITY...

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 09 Aug 2015, 10:51

Your stats have made me wonder - with the Dec season and Cleveland and others -- even though the word commercial gets paraded around -- that if you really observe the total cash flow -- as to whether the CM world as a whole makes any money at all.

At least I am starting to feel that CM is really a cause and isn't an enterprise that returns anything monetarily to the sponsors at all. In this we may be even worse than the airline industry (if Warren buffet is to be believed).

It's a reality check that this music is ultimately being sustained only on enthusiasm.

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 10 Aug 2015, 01:04

SrinathK wrote: Your stats have made me wonder - with the Dec season and Cleveland and others -- even though the word commercial gets paraded around -- that if you really observe the total cash flow -- as to whether the CM world as a whole makes any money at all. At least I am starting to feel that CM is really a cause and isn't an enterprise that returns anything monetarily to the sponsors at all. In this we may be even worse than the airline industry (if Warren buffet is to be believed).
It's a reality check that this music is ultimately being sustained only on enthusiasm.

At least the Airline Industry is subsidised by the TAX PAYER ultimately.......
Most of the sponsors to day are somewhat better off in the sense that they hold reasonably good jobs etc & SUPPORT of KODAI VALLAR like. NALLI CHETTIAR etc.
THE REAL POINEERS THAT I WORSHIP ARE PERSONS LIKE
Late Sethuraman of Perambur Sangeetha Sabha whose EFFORTS (in spite of their zero economic clout) inspired at least my genetration to walk all the way from triplicane to Perambur(& walk back at mid night) to hear the MOST MEMORABLE CONCERTS OF MY LISTENING LIFE of over 60 years. The Mali, Maharajapuram, ARI, GNB, MMI & OTHERS concerts there CANNOT BE ERASED from memory EVEN IF ONE TRIED..
Fortunately even today Asthika Samajam (Tiruvanmaiyur) Narasimhan & Nadopasana Srinivasan are carrying on that tradition. If it ls left to me I will have statues of Sethuraman & Papanasam Sivan in the parking lot of the Music Academy instead of the car park.....VKV

thanjavooran · Post by **thanjavooran** » 10 Aug 2015, 08:01

Shri VKV avl,

" THE REAL POINEERS THAT I WORSHIP ARE PERSONS LIKE
Late Sethuraman of Perambur Sangeetha Sabha whose EFFORTS (in spite of their zero economic clout) inspired at least my genetration to walk all the way from triplicane to Perambur(& walk back at mid night) to hear the MOST MEMORABLE CONCERTS OF MY LISTENING LIFE of over 60 years. The Mali, Maharajapuram, ARI, GNB, MMI & OTHERS concerts there CANNOT BE ERASED from memory EVEN IF ONE TRIED.. "

Yes, rightly said. It is very hard to find such noble persons. In spite of personal problems he made all out efforts to run the show. Even now this PSS is below poverty line, yet managing to give class programmes to Rasikas like us. Those days have gone when Vidwans offered to please Perambur Rasikas with a very little sanmanam.

Thanjavooran
10 08 2015

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 10 Aug 2015, 11:51

I have heard several times from someone close to the action how Vid K J Yesudas has consistently refused to perform at the Mysore Dassara Palace Concert festival as they were willing to pay no more than Rs Ten lakhs whereas his minimum fee was Rs 15 lakhs.
These are big numbers and big names and my mind is somewhat numbed by so many big things. Its like reading how Rohini Nilekani sold 0.25% of Infy stock and encashed Rs 800 crores only.

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 11 Aug 2015, 02:29

I think there is a difference between Action Tigers and Paper Tigers. Action Tigers wherever they are will organize, and present programs for community enjoyment and we need more of them in each town.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 11 Aug 2015, 04:30

Quite right VK Raman. And a lot of the animosity is due to the paper tigers and partial paper tigers criticize Action Tigers with impunity just because they can, on either imagined issues or about some side shows that always happen in any major undertaking. Will I be annoyed if I am an AT. You betcha.

What I consider to be a problem with such complaint prone PT are two fold ( talking in general here ):
First, there is an overall negative feeling of 'what a thankless world and community we have become'. That can not be good for anything.
Second, the pond gets so dirty that no reasonable conversation can take place. AT get upset because they are being unfairly criticized. Bystanders get annoyed because there is no way to provide any feedback to the AT without sounding like a PT.

This may be wishful thinking but hopefully we have gotten past all that with respect to Cleveland. We will see in Spring 2016, a few weeks before Cleveland Aradhana starts.

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 11 Aug 2015, 08:14

People with four kinds of bones; (1) wish bones who wish others do it (2) Jaw bones who keeps talking (3) knuckle bones who knocks down what is being done (4) back bone - one who does with strength - who are we?

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 11 Aug 2015, 09:29

KJY plays for some Bengaluru manadalis at no or nominal cost, I believe. Infosys have supported music in a limited way, and they believe they have to help the weaker sections more (CM may be eligible here, but not considered so). Murthys and Nilekanis also do a lot of public work, I believe, with their money. While it is great that Nalli, Reddy, etc. support CM, it is perhaps too much to expect that all wealthy ones must support it. There are far too many constituencies that clamour for support to be viable even for the richest.
The need today is enlarging the base of audience that will pay for the music (it is a great flaw in our national ethos that we expect almost everything free). The efforts by TMK, Dr. Sundar, Mudhra, many sabhas have to be supplemented by steps like what Rsachi has been fervently advocating. Without a base or a group of perpetual patrons, CM will just be a niche wonder.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 11 Aug 2015, 09:34

It is indeed annoying when someone goes after either the musicians or organisers with a crude vengeance, and the response from those that take the trouble is more reasonable than the charge. I feel we cannot be neutral and call both the sides to be at fault. If we have to ignore all that is said unjustly or in exaggeration, we may avoid an altrercation, but there is no knowing whether the complainant failed in his effort to sully. Stating the other side may be in place.

hnbhagavan · Post by **hnbhagavan** » 11 Aug 2015, 09:54

INFOSYS does sponsor concerts thru Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan and some times Ananya,Malleswaram.I have observed that they encourage young talent.A sum of Rs 1 Crore or so was given to Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan and during last Ramanavami held at FORT,I saw INFOSYS banner which means they contributed.

RKrishnamurthy · Post by **RKrishnamurthy** » 13 Aug 2015, 09:36

" CAN YOU COME UP WITH IDEAS TO RAISE 250K U.S.DOLLARS EVERY YEAR?"
Can you tell me why you need 250K US Dollars to run a week or two long program when the hall is free and three or four musicians share a room at the hotel and their food costs 5$? I also understand that Air India and a US carrier provides a number of free tickets to artists coming from India. Please give a break up for the benefit of the rasikas as to how 250K US Dollars will be spent for the Cleveland Aradhana and how it is justifiable.

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 13 Aug 2015, 11:26

RKrishnamurthy Sir,

I consciously avoided joining this discussion. When you raised the inquiry for the need for the funds, I decided to share my view.
1. With sincerity, deep commitment and dedication to work for the art and its development, one can join the team and contribute for the excellence in management to achieve the AIMS and OBJECTIVES of the organization.

2. If entry barrier is insurmountable and one cannot join the organization, it is better to work with any other organization of greater merits for contribution and results.

3. If joining any organization is not possible for any genuine and deep concerns in the management, one can work individually or with a likeminded group of persons. Contribution and results inspire. Leadership is recognized and organization (s) seeking such leadership will invite and become the leader to bring excellence and the results. Individual bringing transformation will result in collective transformation.

4. Working together is the critical factor, both within and without. Without, with likeminded group (s) and within one's own mind with clarity, understanding, appreciation and acceptance of the other or others/groups. To achieve best of clarity and understanding the other or others, inquire but with the ideas and actions plan for alternate plans for achieving excellence. When one wants to inquire, one has to be ready to share the belief and offer insights.

5. Let not the anxiety and even fear influence the mind in creativity as creativity can happen only in mind rest in freedom. Let not the dejection and even rejection affect the thinking and its resultant actions when working for a noble cause.
With freedom one has to determine, will, decide and take actions for one's own self fulfillment and also for collective self fulfillment.

Sir, you are a seasoned professional. You know what I have shared here. This is just a reminder observing distraction of the mind and out of focus.

I am also appealing to all the forumites who were part of the discussion in this thread, observe, infer, introspect to get the perspective, share and contribute. Being dismissive not helpful and constructive. In making comment to silence the inquirer in a group discussion, one only conveys immaturity, intolerance, pride and prejudice, all detrimental factors in achieving the unity and unity of purpose. Unity of purpose is for one's own self fulfillment and universal fulfillment of joy, pleasure and bliss of one of the greatest arts, Karnataka Sangeetham Music experience.

munirao2001

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 14 Aug 2015, 11:49

RKrishnamurthy wrote:" CAN YOU COME UP WITH IDEAS TO RAISE 250K U.S.DOLLARS EVERY YEAR?"
Can you tell me why you need 250K US Dollars to run a week or two long program when the hall is free and three or four musicians share a room at the hotel and their food costs 5$? I also understand that Air India and a US carrier provides a number of free tickets to artists coming from India. Please give a break up for the benefit of the rasikas as to how 250K US Dollars will be spent for the Cleveland Aradhana and how it is justifiable.

Sighhhh.

Just around the time after Prof Tom Tuttle's death (Prof Tom Tuttle being the prime mover behind the festival from Cleveland State University), Cleveland State University which was already experiencing budget cuts, expressed its inability to provide rent-free facilities. In fact, the University additionally started charging for the audio technicians as well as for the security guards in the building.

Since the security guards are unionised, they stopped work at 9 pm. This of course caused a problem when concerts overran their allotted slot.

I watched this happen one year and asked around why this sudden downing of curtains at 9 pm. I got this information straight from the horse's mouth, so to say. That is, Cleveland Sri Balasubramanian's mouth.

However, we are getting a lot of so-called "true facts" from the other end of the horse here.

PS. You mentioned how you talk to Sabha secretaries in Chennai.

I carry that further. I talk to them in US cities too. They are equally willing to talk about the issues they face generally.