The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

Miscellaneous topics on Carnatic music
sureshvv
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Joined: 05 Jul 2007, 18:17

Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

Post by sureshvv »

prabuddha wrote: 04 Dec 2017, 16:56 CM concert traditions seem to have hummed and hawed for a while, then compromised with it for political expediency.
Cynical conclusion. The fact is that many quality tamil compositions were tuned by many vidwans/vidhushis to enable them for the Carnatic concert.
Now we have Tamil compositions in the 'tukkada' section of the concert. Phew. what a scornful designation! The concert is back to its good old Thanjavur ways.
Seems like you are stuck under a rock somewhere. Look up the Concert Reviews forum.
But if someone like TMK holds up a mirror, it's necessary not to put on blinders immediately and pronounce that all's well with us and it's only the mirror that's dark.
Sure. But TMK is holding up the mirror to people's rear ends. Not necessary.

Sachi_R
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Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

Post by Sachi_R »

Charu Venkat,
I VEHEMENTLY protest against any intention of doing some dirty linen exposing and psychoanalysis of Sri.TMK based on his quite obviously irritating, and selective, and rumour- and prejudice- based, pronouncements. He could be doing them for reasons of publicity, or on account of a kind of warped social psychology often attributed to childhood experiences and circumstances etc., or a self-imposed messiah behaviour.

But just as are decrying all such pronouncements, writing such stuff about any of the current or future TMK's and MSS's families or childhood stuff is not a sign of culture or maturity.

I feel the best way we can help TMK is to completely ignore his ravings. He has many years of great music left in him and I look forward to it. I surely hope he gets out of his current "zone".

Charu Venkat
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Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

Post by Charu Venkat »

Sachi_R wrote: 04 Dec 2017, 19:12 I VEHEMENTLY protest against any intention of doing some dirty linen exposing and psychoanalysis of Sri.TMK based on his quite obviously irritating, and selective, and rumour- and prejudice- based, pronouncements.
You fight fire with fire. If Mr. Krishna holds up mirrors to the posteriors of dead people, similar attempts ought to make him desist from doing such things.
Sachi_R wrote: 04 Dec 2017, 19:12 He could be doing them for reasons of publicity, or on account of a kind of warped social psychology often attributed to childhood experiences and circumstances etc., or a self-imposed messiah behaviour.
Going by Occam's Razor, the most likely conclusion is that Krishna is angling for a Padma award, a Bharat Ratna, and/or a (ig)Nobel prize.
Sachi_R wrote: 04 Dec 2017, 19:12 He has many years of great music left in him and I look forward to it
Bhakti Biksham wrote:prANamu lEni vAniki bangAru pAga cuTTi
ANi vajra bhUshaNamu-uramandu peTTu rIti
8jANalaku purANa-Agama SAstra vEda japa prasanga
trANa kalgi-Emi
Similarly, what is the point of according accolades on an excellent musician if all he wants to do is to hypocritically bash up the Late and Great for the purposes of getting a few awards? Until and unless TMK behaves himself it is better to ignore him and let him bark at the moon as Arasi suggested.

shankarank
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Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

Post by shankarank »

Sachi_R wrote: 04 Dec 2017, 19:12 I VEHEMENTLY protest against.... psychoanalysis of Sri.TMK... we can help TMK is to completely ignore his ravings
The person who started threads like TMK running Canteen is now protesting! The person who tried to sensationalize by posting his photo is now back footing..
arasi wrote: 04 Dec 2017, 10:40 The way we patronize artistes from India...
rshankar wrote: 04 Dec 2017, 18:43
arasi wrote: 04 Dec 2017, 11:40 Ramamatya,
If that's what there is for the artistes abroad, they should refuse offers for concerts outside of India :(
And stop teaching all those clueless NRIs as well via Skype.
Reminds me of an interaction I had with TMK. I had paid for a Cleveland package (stay plus tickets) and wearing a badge. TMK accosted me in the Comfort Inn, and asked me what that is. I said I am patronizing all of his ilk ( with a sense of self deprecation - trust me!) . TMK reacted quite coolly - hah, hah, OK.. OK.. with a smile.

I don't want to get into this lemon rice business! I know it may happen in isolated cases - but largely artistes have their good friends and figured out who treats them well etc.

But to say and credit ourselves that we have patronized the artistes is not acceptable either. Most of the crowd has been brought , with the encouragement of Children etc. - which is a good thing by itself - but there are truly only limited real patrons!

if anything, it is a diaspora looking for things to do - unable to merge into country clubs - which is also a good thing - hey at least now!

uday_shankar
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Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

Post by uday_shankar »

Sachi_R wrote: 04 Dec 2017, 19:12ignore his ravings.
I don't think TM Krishna is raving at all. The only people "raving" are his critics, both here and elsewhere, who have nothing to offer except criticism.

TMK may be a provocateur, but malicious or self-serving, I don't think so. I am surprised at the vehemence, incoherence and a general failure, barring some exceptions, to respond in a cogent logical way to many of his simple observations which all have an element of truth to them. Only makes me want to examine his views more seriously. I think TMK is waaay more intellectually attractive than the critics :).

I don't believe TMK is "eccentric" either, as has been described widely. These are nonsense words used by people who have no practice thinking out of the cultural box. The truth WILL seem eccentric to people who haven't strayed beyond some standard groupthink.

Charu Venkat
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Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

Post by Charu Venkat »

uday_shankar wrote: 04 Dec 2017, 19:43
Sachi_R wrote: 04 Dec 2017, 19:12ignore his ravings.
I don't think TM Krishna is raving at all. The only people "raving" are his critics, both here and elsewhere, who have nothing to offer except criticism.
TMK is entitled to his own opinion as we are to ours. The issue (if you bothered to read the thread earlier) arose from personal remarks made about MS's choice of partner, her dressing sense, and skin tone, and even more importantly, her intelligence.

Let me make this clear- MS Subbulakshmi was no babe lost in the woods. If she had to walk out of her family house at the age of 18, if she had to forge a career for herself independent of Mr. Sadasivam, if she was to establish such a huge following across India, it indicates a mind far ahead of her contemporaries (where her more talented peers of MLV, DKP, and NCV were left in the dust). To patronize that and attribute that to a Brahmin 'captor' is erroneous, far from the truth, and a condescending attitude adopted by a far inferior human being.
uday_shankar wrote: 04 Dec 2017, 19:43 but malicious or self-serving, I don't think so.
Read all his articles, writing, and posts, and tell me if he has attacked any caste other than the Brahmins. If he has, please post it. Otherwise, it is best that you revoke this. To specifically target a community at large for the failings of another (the Isai Vellalars) is a sign of prejudice, and gives rise to malice and self serving, pseudo intellectual articles like this.
uday_shankar wrote: 04 Dec 2017, 19:43
barring some exceptions,
Are those exceptions those who put jalra for TMK's dancing?
uday_shankar wrote: 04 Dec 2017, 19:43
I think TMK is waaay more intellectually attractive than the critics :).
'All that glistens isn't gold' - William Shakespeare, Merchant of Venice.
uday_shankar wrote: 04 Dec 2017, 19:43
I don't believe TMK is "eccentric" either, as has been described widely.
He isn't. He is a calculating, malicious, jealous, pseudo-intellectual rabble rouser in the guise of a musician.
uday_shankar wrote: 04 Dec 2017, 19:43
The truth WILL seem eccentric to people who haven't strayed beyond some standard groupthink.
If adhering to standards of decency is groupthink, then it is better than everyone engage in it. If TMK is to write, he should learn something about 'integrity' and 'fairness' first, along with 'decency'. Else it is better that he retreat into whichever hole he crawled out of.

Sachi_R
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Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

Post by Sachi_R »

First off, Shankarank, I agree. I did make fun of TMK's quirks before. I am tempted to do so even now. But I feel in the interest of overall good, I should desist.

Uday, let me tell you where I come from:
1. Art is a creative expression, and it is a gift of God.
2. I hugely respect every musician, especially those I like, eg KVN, Ravikiran, MDR, MSS, TMK, SS, AR, KBMK, BMK, AV, etc. etc.
3. I think a musician or an Inventor or anybody in fact who becomes famous, has several struggles and choices all along, and a lot of it is a highly personal matter and we should not go beyond a Lakshman Rekha in dissecting their past, especially in a way which seems to be gossip or scandal or sensationalism. Especially dead people, or even their living relatives who are offended by such talk, would not choose to engage in public skirmishes. I think we owe it to every human being actually.
4. The Hindu society is based on many traditions and practices. Not all of them are sanctioned in scriptures. Social inequities are everywhere and it is the nature of man to exploit the weak. That is why scriptures like the Bhagavdgita place great value on social responsibility. I can quote and debate this at length but I think you will see what I mean.
5. Social reform requires great living and setting an example by one's own practice, and tireless effort.

You might have read how Gandhiji went ahead with his Harijan movement despite opposition from big religious leaders.

Armchair criticism or art talks will NOT move the needle. One would then be accused of seeking attention and fame.

6. Ramanuja, Kabir, Chaitanya, Basaveshwara, Ramakrishna, Vivekananda, Gandhi, Chinmayananda, were all spiritual leaders who did a lot to address social inequities. They risked a lot in this but surely lived by example. If TMK wishes to build a genre of music that liberates and reforms, and he engages in social reform, he has every opportunity. But singing Krishna nee begane baaro tear-jerkingly (many CM buffs love such emotional Bhakti songs) and then making speeches that he is calling out to the note नी and NOT to any Krishna is to me at best laughable or else hypocritical. In any case our music can do without such dissonant behaviour. I know musicians who despise Hindu religious lyrics and do their own thing away from that space.

A man of power, fame, riches, or media-moving ability has to observe some decorum, and circumspection. Instead of talking of MSS taking up Brahminical ways and retuning her music for success, let him create a body of work of free, liberal, casteless, music that has universal, non-religious appeal. Let him not talk about Brahmcriminals, and yet sing the usual Bhakti-laden music closely aligned with sections of society he despises. Is that not hypocrisy?

Do you want a debate on every single point that is involved here? I am fully equipped to engage in that, except that I think it is a totally stupid way to spend your or my time. You are a remarkable inventor and Godspeed to you in your efforts there.

uday_shankar
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Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

Post by uday_shankar »

Charu Venkat wrote: 04 Dec 2017, 19:58Let me make this clear- MS Subbulakshmi was no babe lost in the woods. If she had to walk out of her family house at the age of 18, if she had to forge a career for herself independent of Mr. Sadasivam, if she was to establish such a huge following across India, it indicates a mind far ahead of her contemporaries (where her more talented peers of MLV, DKP, and NCV were left in the dust).
Totally agree with you on all of this.

I think there's some substance to the "fair complexion" arguments. Indians of all hues are very racist and certainly "fair complexion" is a highly valued absolute. Krishna, Krishnaa (aka Draupadi) are all exceptions cited as if to prove a point. Yes, they prove that everybody else worthy of praise or adoration or reverence was "fair and lovely" :). Not a single character in Kalidaasa is "dark and lovely" !!

Ironically, Indians considered very "fair" in India feel insulted when they are labeled people of "color" in America :). There is no end to this nonsense.

In politics, one might argue that Indira Gandhi, MGR, Jayalalitha, may have been considered less "charismatic" figures if they had been black instead of white.

Worst of all, dark complexioned people are made to feel inferior across Indian culture, much more so than "colored" people are made to feel in white lands in modern times. So while Indian "culture" has remained stagnant, western "culture" is evolving.

So that argument is not without merit.

Also, please excuse me if I don't respond to "rebuttals". My goal is never to win any "arguments", I don't have any.

newid
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Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

Post by newid »

TMK is able to instigate these debates and dialogs about Brahminism because he is part of the community... Similar comments from non-Brahmins, while equally provocative, can be more easily ignored (as they should be).

TMK's comments are provocative and incendiary because similar tropes are used by outsiders to impugn the Brahmin community. I feel his observations and criticism come from a noble place, perhaps one aimed at betterment, but by not inviting his community to think with him, (perhaps a lack of tact and empathy(!)), he is drawing more attention to himself than issues he'd like the community to reflect on. Sometimes greater good is done by being provocative too, in which case, I hope the future will deem his protests bravery and not vanity or malice.

[We hurt most the people we love the most... I still see affection and wonderment in Krishna's leelais, for the gifts he was given/earned/born with. Only, he seems to express it by drawing stark comparisons. He is entitled to express himself as he chooses, as are any of us]

sureshvv
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Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

Post by sureshvv »

I don't think MS was really fair skinned. She was only of "wheatish" complexion. May be polished (she did wear makeup, far ahead of most "mamis" of her time).

This is yet another way the truth is being twisted to suit the narrative.

shankarank
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Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

Post by shankarank »

uday_shankar wrote: 04 Dec 2017, 21:12 Indians of all hues are very racist and certainly "fair complexion" is a highly valued absolute.
You must have heard about the experiment conducted with Kinter Gartners (that included colored children samples as well) with dark and fair dolls! :(
uday_shankar wrote: 04 Dec 2017, 21:12 Ironically, Indians considered very "fair" in India feel insulted when they are labeled people of "color" in America :). There is no end to this nonsense.
Yeah, a cop giving a speeding traffic ticket in liberal Massachusetts classified me as "white" - don't know if that state still collects such profiling information. But it surely made all my colleagues wonder - some jealous too! ;)
uday_shankar wrote: 04 Dec 2017, 21:12 So while Indian "culture" has remained stagnant, western "culture" is evolving.
Latest anti-immigrant sentiment is fueled by what they call gentrification, pushing out immigrants who used to be only in inner cities out to remote suburbs ( because they now have measurable income.. but their inner city property taxes sky rocketed!). Towards the population that has not seen such colors in their vicinity! Their (rich developer's) areas are fully built up - so they go now inflate the prices in other areas!.

Some suburbs will not have Frisbie nets in their parks, to prevent White Trash from coming there too!! So prejudices run across all categories invented by the pseudo liberals.

The so called "evolved " culture is a pseudo liberal dress up - where they have made absolute protections of their soft power in nuanced ways!

As regards treatment of Women and their rights - you can plainly see how it plays across people of political persuasions, class and color too - in the house of liberty called the Congress!
Last edited by shankarank on 04 Dec 2017, 22:14, edited 1 time in total.

kvjayan
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Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

Post by kvjayan »

Indians of all hues are very racist, of course-except myself and the practitioners of mythical and mystical, "inclusivity".

ratanabhinav
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Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

Post by ratanabhinav »

One thing that I could say amidst all this is that , it would be nice if carnatic music rises above religion , and exists just for the sake of sheer music . Come on , why not we have songs / kritis sung on secular topics ?
Say what , a song in kharaharapriya that describes the raga kharaharapriya itself . something like
Pallavi :
' Kharaharapriya ragaththai kettu mayanginen ..."
Anupallavi :
" Sarigamapadanisa enra arohanaththai konda ragam
karunyarasaththai sottum raagam , ...etc etc....." and charanam....

Won't things like this broaden the reach , range of CM and make it a huge affair ?
If this is done , everyone in the world would be able to appreciate our music , irrespective of their social class/ ethnicity.
It is because of the fact that CM lyrics are very very steeped in bhakthi and RELIGIOUS ORTHODOXY that it is underrated . Else , it would probably be the most popular and widely listened to music , given its manodharma and wonderful aspects .
Whilst i'm not totally against bhakti songs , the music must take the lead . Bhakti songs too could feature , but also the non- bhakthi songs must feature .
In fact , i've read that artistes those days used to sing humorous pallavis . There could even be a huge musical opera of a story between two lovers , tuned to carnatic music !! Or a detective story , or xyz , the lyrics could be anything . WE must all take up this . Imagine the huge scope in this area , how the bhava could be brought out effectively using ragas for the above mentioned genre of lyrics . Wow. It's simply amazing
Last edited by ratanabhinav on 04 Dec 2017, 22:45, edited 4 times in total.

Nick H
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Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

Post by Nick H »

I think that you could stip all the religion out of CM, and you'd still be left with serious classical music... Serious classical music will always be a minority interest. Isn't that what happened to western classical?
ramamatya wrote: 04 Dec 2017, 14:56
Nick H wrote: 04 Dec 2017, 13:06 I thought that was where all this started.

Perhaps I am dodgy ground here. Plainly I am not a member of the community which TMK irks on a regular basis, so tell me to keep my mouth shut... Fair enough.

But it seems to me... Do Not Feed The Troll!
Typical 'divide and rule' Brit
wait, take the
Trouble to read what I'm saying, and you'll find I'm the undevisive one.

Why works I wasn't sure divide my friends. And as for ruling you lot...

:lol: :lol:

(the other one thought I was a CIA agent; this one seems to know I'm British. They may be closely related, though)

What you actually get banned for here: being very poisonous for several years. So you probably have to try a lot harder!

shankarank
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Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

Post by shankarank »

shankarank wrote: 04 Dec 2017, 21:54
uday_shankar wrote: 04 Dec 2017, 21:12 So while Indian "culture" has remained stagnant, western "culture" is evolving.
The so called "evolved " culture is a pseudo liberal dress up - where they have made absolute protections of their soft power in nuanced ways!
And none of this is based on any personal experience or things that have affected my life. It is more based on narrations by very seniors who are not some Indian jingoists, but in fact they were more disdainful of Indian traits that is holding up progress!

Some such seniors have even narrated the travails of building a temple, with North Indians mostly in the lead. Where the main debate is, if the deity should be of black or white stone. Some North Indian progressives would also question why Menstruating Women should not enter the Sanctum - which Sastra says that? This senior had to put out some retort that, no Sastra is against marrying one's Sister - would they do it?!

That one senior now does not go to temples. His reason: nobody there is interested in promoting true religious or spiritual ideals. It is all one up manship game!

And I have benefited immensely from temples in NA and in India - irrespective of all things that can be wrong!

And I have benefited a lot from both countries. I have had excellent mentors - especially in liberal Massachusetts that put me where I am.

I guess I will have to say that to correct any misunderstanding!

At the same time when the conversations turned political though, the mentor was so well informed of Indian history that he would narrate, how two soldiers in historic India would test the sharpness of their swords by trying it out on some downtrodden untouchables. He was making sure we all understood that it is not just his "white" people that were bad!!

uday_shankar
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Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

Post by uday_shankar »

Sachi_R wrote: 04 Dec 2017, 20:57You are a remarkable inventor and Godspeed to you in your efforts there.
Ahem, that's embarrassing, but many many thanks ! Coming from you that's high praise indeed. I try very hard and earnestly to make things work... some things do, others don't.

sureshvv
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Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

Post by sureshvv »

Some more light on this without the sound.

http://sureshs65music.blogspot.in/2015/ ... music.html

prabuddha
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Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

Post by prabuddha »

sureshvv wrote: 04 Dec 2017, 16:36 Civility is most important and you don't have it.
Should I have said, "Which planet do you live in, saar'?

Clearly we need to stop 'giving my sentiments were hurt' kind of argument when confronted with a difficult question. It's poverty of discourse.

Humbly yours,

ram1999
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Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

Post by ram1999 »

uday_shankar wrote: 04 Dec 2017, 19:43
Sachi_R wrote: 04 Dec 2017, 19:12ignore his ravings.
I don't think TM Krishna is raving at all. The only people "raving" are his critics, both here and elsewhere, who have nothing to offer except criticism.

TMK may be a provocateur, but malicious or self-serving, I don't think so. I am surprised at the vehemence, incoherence and a general failure, barring some exceptions, to respond in a cogent logical way to many of his simple observations which all have an element of truth to them. Only makes me want to examine his views more seriously. I think TMK is waaay more intellectually attractive than the critics :).

I don't believe TMK is "eccentric" either, as has been described widely. These are nonsense words used by people who have no practice thinking out of the cultural box. The truth WILL seem eccentric to people who haven't strayed beyond some standard groupthink.
.

The blind support to the crap that krishna keeps spewing only resembles a congress man in him 😜😜

sureshvv
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Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

Post by sureshvv »

prabuddha wrote: 05 Dec 2017, 07:20
sureshvv wrote: 04 Dec 2017, 16:36 Civility is most important and you don't have it.
Should I have said, "Which planet do you live in, saar'?

Clearly we need to stop 'giving my sentiments were hurt' kind of argument when confronted with a difficult question. It's poverty of discourse.

Humbly yours,
That post was not directed at you, It was in response to the one just above it, You are misinformed but quite civil. If you want to respond to something, see the post where I have explicitly quoted you and provided a rebuttal.

shankarank
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Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

Post by shankarank »

sureshvv wrote: 05 Dec 2017, 07:04 Some more light on this without the sound.

http://sureshs65music.blogspot.in/2015/ ... music.html
Laya viSranti is ignored in any commentary. In spite of rehearsing umpteen times, in spite of composers intent whatever, in spite of Bhakti or Bhavam , that the music delivered on a particular day can produce nuances on the time axis , is not even considered.

All this Bhakti Bhavam is very special property of eco systems that reared them. Depends on what all inputs went into it. That people across the country in some fashion of their own can connect to MSS's Music obviously first had to do with lot of entry criteria like voice quality, tonal quality , all getting the highest marks.

Plus it has to do with the thing we hate to hear these days - the under current called Indian culture - based on Sanskriti - Bhakti Bhavam being one of them. This Bhakti Bhavam can manifest differently from symptomatic point of view between regions, but still there is a common under current that feeds all of it!

Now we even want critics to use Bhavam and aesthetics of emotion to be used in critique! If MSS became popular, and thousands throng what was the need for any criticism. Shouldn't the critics rather focus on the less popular musicians considered creative in their books - who are tiring it out??

But then even , with all said about her music vs. the music of her "creative" male counterparts, a cursory observation of her female successors reveals ( and many of them had appealing voices for their times) , the weakness in layam! A Murthy mama accompaniment will destroy their music, if a destructive testing were to be conducted! All of them had saukaryam (pliable/accommodating) accompanists!

That we classify creativity into certain forms like neraval and kalpana svaram , but ignore the "musical" , "artful" , "structural" sans "emotion" creativity in compositions in their rhythmic placement of syllables and how they are negotiated by a singer reflects the paucity of even innate understanding of the art!

But then, that she could not pour out melody with abandon as she did in her young age, is made into a huge creativity issue.

If you want the metaphysical - there is the Chandas the meter that is basis of sound , that even precedes the svaras. If you want scientific there is the post "Brief History of time in music" of mine - that analyzes the structural ordering and overlay of various components!

No we won't believe what we experience and discern , we'd rather look for termite infested manuscripts to glean "original" composer intent - mozart style!

What we need is an Indian definition of Truth and Indian method of truth construction - not all these intellectual mumbo jumbo based on some material facts!

ramamatya
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Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

Post by ramamatya »

I'd forgive TMK for this one deviation of his - trying to malign MS. A few years back, he was like a breath of fresh air when he said he'd cycle around to the Sabhas, when he took a December sabbatical, when he performed at the Olcott Kuppam, and so on. His intentions are good, its probably just some teething problems in his innovative journey.

Anusha
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Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

Post by Anusha »

    ratanabhinav wrote: 04 Dec 2017, 22:26 One thing that I could say amidst all this is that , it would be nice if carnatic music rises above religion , and exists just for the sake of sheer music . Come on , why not we have songs / kritis sung on secular topics ?
    Drawing upon various other discussions that I have read earlier on this topic, I would like to share a few points:

    On bringing out new compositions:
    • From a listener's perspective, the perception varies from person on person. Some are focused more on lyrics, some are keen on the musical
      aesthetics alone. And, then there are those who see that both lyrics and music are intertwined. Some prefer old time-tested master pieces.
      Some others are open to new compositions on devotional, as well as secular, contemporary themes.
    • From a performer's perspective, I see two main challenges:
      • Given the traditional concert format, and the backdrop of how Carnatic music has been passed on by all the great masters for
        generations, there will be a resistance to try out a whole concert with completely new compositions. (There may be exceptions,
        I think Balamurali Krishna has performed a whole concert exclusively with his own compositions.)
      • Even if this resistance is overcome, the artiste has to make a whole new effort to create compositions exhibiting the complete
        musicality, at par with compositions of trinity and other great composers.
    On secular compositions:
    • I recall that Chitravina Ravikiran had made a very valuable suggestion, in one of his articles. He had remarked that popularizing
      instrumental music is a good start. This way, new listeners can get exposed to the various musical aspects first. And, later they can work
      towards knowing the lyrics, based on their interest.
    • Over 10 years back, vocalist Manasi Prasad had written an article on the need of secular compositions on various contemporary themes
      in Ananya Abhivyakti (published by Ananya, Malleswaram, Bangalore) in Kannada. Not knowing Kannada, I did not get to read it. However,
      I recall that it aroused conflicts. it was not received well by many senior musicians, who felt that the existing Carnatic music tradition
      should be preserved as it is. I remember reading a rejoinder by Manasi in English, clarifying her good intentions.
    • In general, many musicians use tukkada section to bring out other themes – sringaram, spiritual, philosophical etc.
      Like padam, shlokam, viruttham, Bharathiyar / Purandara dasar/ Annamacharya songs with social commentary.
    • Sringaram (love), is a universal theme in art, that appeals to everyone. Padams in the Veena Dhanammal bani, are so full of music, they
      give a complete picture of the ragams. (Here, the listener needs to be mature enough to understand the context and time period when
      these were composed.)
    • Our revered forumite Arasi, has composed padams from the hero’s standpoint. I am yet to listen to these, will do it sometime soon.
    • TMK has been doing a lot of experimentation with the concert format. And, rasikas have expressed mixed feelings on these. Perhaps the
      idea of singing the varanam / padam as the main piece, would have come from dance.
    • I like the idea of including other religious deities in a song /bhajan. Maybe the popular ones – Allah tero naam, Govind bolo Gopal bolo, as
      some musicians have done. TMK had sung a viruttham in Sahana on Allah.
    • In the December season schedule over 3-4 years back, I remember seeing a lec-dem on the list by Smt. Suguna Purushottaman on ‘Secular
      compositions in Carnatic music’. I was eager to attend this. But, somehow, I missed it. If any of you got a chance to listen to it, please
      do share the details.
    Carnatic music (like any other subject), is a demanding art form. The listener needs to make a gradual effort to learn the musical details, for enhanced appreciation. Many of the current day artistes, give a brief introduction of the compositions, and highlight some of the important musical aspects for us to note. We also have various lec-dems at elementary levels as well. I applaud such efforts.

    sureshvv
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    Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

    Post by sureshvv »

    Innovative journey to the dark side where you await to welcome him. Just this should give him pause :D

    sureshvv
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    Joined: 05 Jul 2007, 18:17

    Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

    Post by sureshvv »

    Just heard this great Thnajavur Sankara Iyer kriti "Ezhiludai Hamsanadam" overnight rendered by Geetha Rajasekhar.

    Check it out: http://www.karnatik.com/c2949.shtml

    ram1999
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    Joined: 26 Nov 2015, 17:20

    Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

    Post by ram1999 »

    I guess the easiest thing that krishna could do is sto start singing "surangani Surangani surangani malu kanna vaa ...." the dapankuthu song in his concerts in place of the varnam which will start attracting the kuppam people, his target audience for inclusiveness and CM to sustain for years to come.

    And also he should stop singing songs which have been composed by the bhramin community as he is in a anti bhramin tirade !!

    CRama
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    Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

    Post by CRama »

    The first thing for TMK to do is have only non brahmins pakkavadyams and show to the world that I can bring success to my concert without the support of the upper class.
    The second thing to place aboard outside his concert- ENTRY FOR NON BRAHMINS ONLY.
    The third thing should to teach only non brahmins.

    ratanabhinav
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    Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

    Post by ratanabhinav »

    If his guru SSI had been alive today , what would have he said on seeing THIS !!! :oops: :roll: :!:

    ratanabhinav
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    Joined: 22 Jun 2016, 22:58

    Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

    Post by ratanabhinav »

    HIS possible songlist during " eri kuppam " dec fest this year :
    #1 surangani - followed by vedikka vedikka vEdikkaiyana kalpanaswaram , thani avarthanam
    #2 poramboku - ragamalika
    #3 thanam in 6 ragas
    #3 a popular ' eri - kuppam esque ' film song tuned in those ragas
    #4a alapana , thanam
    #4b * something shocking and extremely controversial number with outrageous lyrics mostly in local and highly unchaste Tamil , unexpected and unwarranted * niraval , kalpanaswraam
    #5 a speech
    #6 solo violin

    ratanabhinav
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    Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

    Post by ratanabhinav »

    some marked points to note about the above concert are :
    #1 viruththams , lyrics are all in local Tamil slang
    #2 speech is also made in local slang Tamil
    #3 alapana not sung using ' thadarina ' and akaras and ikaras as usual , but with eri kuppam slang sounds
    #4 laya in the above concert resembles the laya of the fisherfolk songs .

    ram1999
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    Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

    Post by ram1999 »

    https://youtu.be/Ms4PnUHxzIk His mannerisms are more akin to Pappu.

    sureshvv
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    Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

    Post by sureshvv »

    CRama wrote: 05 Dec 2017, 13:54 The first thing for TMK to do is have only non brahmins pakkavadyams and show to the world that I can bring success to my concert without the support of the upper class.
    You must be kidding. Without the super brahmin by his side, he is a baby in the woods :)
    The second thing to place aboard outside his concert- ENTRY FOR NON BRAHMINS ONLY.
    May be if he provides urur famous dabba kanji as welcome drink.

    shankarank
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    Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

    Post by shankarank »

    It is appalling how we stoop to such levels when he has made only rhetorical diatribes against the community. We surreptitiously bring in some axiomatic consistency and hypocriticism from modern intellectualism and Christianity/Western methods to make the argument.

    This from a country that handled contradictions galore! We are schooled in the "English" education system - what else can we expect of ourselves!

    prabuddha
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    Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

    Post by prabuddha »

    sureshvv wrote: 04 Dec 2017, 19:02
    prabuddha wrote: 04 Dec 2017, 16:56 CM concert traditions seem to have hummed and hawed for a while, then compromised with it for political expediency.
    Cynical conclusion. The fact is that many quality tamil compositions were tuned by many vidwans/vidhushis to enable them for the Carnatic concert.

    Complete rubbish. How many Tamil compositions are there for which CM artistes do RTP. It's statistically insignificant. The fact remains that Tamil songs jostle for space in the Tukkada section with Kannada (devaranama) and Marathi (Abhang). Even in the 20th century, CM masters composed varnams in Telugu which are faithfully being sung even now.
    Now we have Tamil compositions in the 'tukkada' section of the concert. Phew. what a scornful designation! The concert is back to its good old Thanjavur ways.
    Seems like you are stuck under a rock somewhere. Look up the Concert Reviews forum.

    See above.
    But if someone like TMK holds up a mirror, it's necessary not to put on blinders immediately and pronounce that all's well with us and it's only the mirror that's dark.
    Sure. But TMK is holding up the mirror to people's rear ends. Not necessary.
    Does Brahminhood shine from one's rear end? Your comment is absurd, saar!

    sureshvv
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    Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

    Post by sureshvv »

    Actually it does. So stop looking.

    Talk about their music. They meaning musicians/rasikas. Discuss their philosophy/outlook. Talk about socio/economic status if you must. Leave the caste out, for God's sake. You sound like you have stepped out of a medieval movie set.

    prabuddha
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    Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

    Post by prabuddha »

    sureshvv wrote: 05 Dec 2017, 18:38 Actually it does. So stop looking.
    This is actually offensive!!

    sureshvv
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    Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

    Post by sureshvv »

    Not intended. Your checking on people's caste is both offensive & dangerous.

    prabuddha
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    Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

    Post by prabuddha »

    sureshvv wrote: 05 Dec 2017, 18:38 Actually it does. So stop looking.

    Talk about their music. They meaning musicians/rasikas. Discuss their philosophy/outlook. Talk about socio/economic status if you must. Leave the caste out, for God's sake. You sound like you have stepped out of a medieval movie set.
    It seems you'll permit every other topic as worthwhile i.e., music, philosophy, status and other aspects. Why are you then so sensitive about the caste angle? We're discussing TMK's pronouncements which spells out 'Brahmin' and 'caste'. So how can you discuss this without the original terms used by TMK? Do you want us all to say 'Siva Siva' and block our ears? Even if I agree with you, it's there like a standing reproach.

    The 'Siva Siva' attitude didnt get the Brahmins anywhere in the slower world of newspaper, drama and cinema. Where would it get them in the brave new world of social media on mobile phones?

    Humbly yours,

    MaheshS
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    Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

    Post by MaheshS »

    prabuddha wrote: 05 Dec 2017, 18:52 Where would it get them in the brave new world of social media on mobile phones?
    CEO of Google, Microsoft etc.

    Maybe I *should* say Siva Siva more :)

    prabuddha
    Posts: 63
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    Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

    Post by prabuddha »

    MaheshS wrote: 05 Dec 2017, 19:14
    prabuddha wrote: 05 Dec 2017, 18:52 Where would it get them in the brave new world of social media on mobile phones?
    CEO of Google, Microsoft etc.

    Maybe I *should* say Siva Siva more :)
    OMG! who's talking about worldly achievement?

    I'm speaking of the overt and covert criticism that Brahmins are elitist! TMK only speaks of social attitudes, not tech achievements. He's not saying Brahmins are not allowing others to get into JAVA careers. For god's sake!

    Humbly yours,

    MaheshS
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    Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

    Post by MaheshS »

    prabuddha wrote: 05 Dec 2017, 19:19
    MaheshS wrote: 05 Dec 2017, 19:14
    prabuddha wrote: 05 Dec 2017, 18:52 Where would it get them in the brave new world of social media on mobile phones?
    CEO of Google, Microsoft etc.

    Maybe I *should* say Siva Siva more :)
    OMG! who's talking about worldly achievement?

    I'm speaking of the overt and covert criticism that Brahmins are elitist! TMK only speaks of social attitudes, not tech achievements. He's not saying Brahmins are not allowing others to get into JAVA careers. For god's sake!

    Humbly yours,
    *You* asked where it would get them in the new world of social media on mobile phones. Maybe you should start wording things so people other than you can understand what you mean?

    sureshvv
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    Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

    Post by sureshvv »

    All this wallowing in muck, making wild baseless accusations, suggesting sinister & morbid motives without a single constructive actionable item.

    You guys need some serious counselling to repair the damage done to your world view.

    shankarank
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    Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

    Post by shankarank »

    sureshvv wrote: 05 Dec 2017, 18:06
    CRama wrote: 05 Dec 2017, 13:54 The first thing for TMK to do is have only non brahmins pakkavadyams and show to the world that I can bring success to my concert without the support of the upper class.
    You must be kidding. Without the super brahmin by his side, he is a baby in the woods :)
    Is she fully of brahmin descent?

    http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp ... 284997.ece

    Have we made an M.S. Subbalakshmi out of her already?? :o :cry:

    sureshvv
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    Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

    Post by sureshvv »

    Oh geez... I was talking about his accompanist musical backbone

    shankarank
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    Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

    Post by shankarank »

    Sometimes too darn difficult to dissect the figurative. If people complain of my epic posts, your one liners on the other side cryptic too!

    Anyways my response is partial (half) to CRama - figuratively ;)

    prabuddha
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    Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

    Post by prabuddha »

    MaheshS wrote: 05 Dec 2017, 19:23
    prabuddha wrote: 05 Dec 2017, 19:19
    MaheshS wrote: 05 Dec 2017, 19:14

    CEO of Google, Microsoft etc.

    Maybe I *should* say Siva Siva more :)
    OMG! who's talking about worldly achievement?

    I'm speaking of the overt and covert criticism that Brahmins are elitist! TMK only speaks of social attitudes, not tech achievements. He's not saying Brahmins are not allowing others to get into JAVA careers. For god's sake!

    Humbly yours,
    *You* asked where it would get them in the new world of social media on mobile phones. Maybe you should start wording things so people other than you can understand what you mean?
    Did you recently graduate from Plus 2?

    shankarank
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    Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

    Post by shankarank »

    TMK's latest response: http://indianculturalforum.in/2017/12/0 ... m-krishna/

    His argument seems to be: If MSS became popular through Meera, and not through her musical talent - it is fair game to use her story to popularize a different view!

    RSR
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    Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

    Post by RSR »

    @147-> Smt.MS was a huge hit in Mahamaham festival concert at Kumbakonam as early as 1936. ( she was 20 then).The music festival was organized by Director Subramanyam. . She did not become popular because of Tamil Meera film. Her first film was in 1938. ( Seva Sadhanam) having some glorious songs like Shyama Sundara, Maa Ramanan , Maa dhayai nidhi etc. Her second film was in 1940. ( Sakunthalai-Kalidasa's Sakunthalam) produced by Sri.Sadasivam. The film had about 18 songs , 14 of them , solos by Smt.MSS Sadasivam.. She had got married then and had retired from acting in films ( she was 24 then). When Kalki and Sadasivam got sacked from Ananda Vikatan by SS Vasan, they started the Kalki magazine and to raise funds, Sri.Sadasivam produced Savithri film ( Sathyavan Savithri). The heroine was not MS but Santha Apte. MS acted as Naradahar and sang 4 wonderful songs among them the immortal Bruhi Mukundethi of Sadasiva Brammendram . Meera film was released in 1945 only. and had 18 wonderful songs set to music by S.V.Venkataraman mostly in ragams common to CM and HM. Great lyrics, Great tunes, Great acting . but actually it was not much of a box-office hit in tamilnad. ( Haridas and MKT were leading!).Smt MS 's final film was Meera remake in Hindi ( 1947). .. MS did not become famous because of Meera. Her singing and the theme ( so much similar to Kothai AndaaL of Tamilnad) blended to enrich everything. It is a spiritual experience. There is no CM without Bakthi movement. TMK is blabbering.

    ramamatya
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    Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

    Post by ramamatya »

    sureshvv wrote: 04 Dec 2017, 19:02
    Sure. But TMK is holding up the mirror to people's rear ends. Not necessary.
    sureshvv wrote: 05 Dec 2017, 18:38 Actually it does. So stop looking.

    Talk about their music. They meaning musicians/rasikas. Discuss their philosophy/outlook. Talk about socio/economic status if you must. Leave the caste out, for God's sake. You sound like you have stepped out of a medieval movie set.
    Ugly and offensive posts. Mod - consider deleting such posts/banning the members who write so offensively.

    shankarank
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    Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

    Re: The pompous T M Krishna spews venom yet again

    Post by shankarank »

    RSR wrote: 06 Dec 2017, 00:26 TMK is blabbering.
    He wants "thematic" justice ( I know that may be a technical term - but using it loosely here to mean equal treatment to all themes!), semantic justice (again may be a technical term, equal treatment of all meanings!) and social justice ( equal treatment of all classes of people).

    We must remember, he is making this demand at large to a community of people - which may be flawed. The community of people can also be informal association of people.

    The reason I am bringing up that is because of this:
    RSR wrote: 06 Dec 2017, 00:26 There is no CM without Bakthi movement.
    Bhakti is fine - if that is how you want to have it. But I have a problem with the "Movement" part. In India pursuit of anything spiritual is adhyAtmic - one has to seek it for oneself. Again I am not getting into "religion" is a private affair kind of argument - which itself is silly - the very definition, tenets and functioning of religions is anything but private. They are all political!

    Once you make it a "Movement" - if it is a loose collaboration of people that is one thing!. Moment it becomes bigger - it is in political realm. Then when it translates into an institutions all questions raised by TMK are fair game!

    Here is where Chomsky's pronouncements start operating. Morality applies to individuals. Institutions have to obey the law and operate within the legal framework! So an institution cannot take too much of a Moral position except some limited code of conduct expectation that allows the smooth functioning of the institution without affecting it's purpose ( specified in the articles of association)!

    Case in point: MA cannot take a position on TN Rajaratnam Pillai's habits and deny him his due status as a musician! Moreover, when it happens that they allowed a musician of another community with such issues to be treated differently, then that is a legitimate case of discrimination! It is legitimate because you are an institution registered under the law!

    TNR inspite of his habits was respected in the kamalalayam, in what was a dharmic society, playing 4 hour hemavati etc.

    Again I stated this as an example - without knowing the actual happenings and reasons!

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