A Rebuttal to T M Krishna

[shankarank]

Having been part of a spicmacay group few years ago when I was in my undergrad made me understand how unwelcome and intimidating classical music felt for people who had not been initiated when they were young.

In spite of having 10 years training as a violinist in childhood ( in a Kerala city), a person that I know has never heard of Violinist T.N Krishnan. In the U.S he/she goes to his daugher's house for classes, and says he/she is from XYZ city in Kerala, to which his daughter responded yes we are also from Kerala from a city called Thrissur. And her father's name was T.N Krishnan. So even if you had been initiated, you have never heard any great music. The two may not go together.

If it was a deeply casteist society that was everywhere like the racial issue in the West, then you ( or they whoever) should have felt intimidated in the Math and physics class as well. Were you (or they whoever)? The conversation that is going on, on those lines and is patently grounded on falsehood.

If no members of the said Caste were in the student body, then there is no question of any Spic Macay even trying to bring the art into your institution.It just won't happen. And that has nothing to do with the hold this Caste , has on music.

I do not understand why it is so difficult to acknowledge that a deeply casteist society will have a strong holding in the art of such a society; and that one can do better in trying to recognize these aspects and work towards making the art we love so much accessible to more people.

The deeply casteist society was not having any hold on this, if by hold you meant, much of the people in the audience would put tALam and identify rAgams or svarams. You did not miss anything there actually! If enjoyment of classical music is to be taught by teaching these traits, there is no higher travesty than that.

I guess we should think of those that walked out of Percussion solo for years , felt intimidated by the others who stayed - the latter probably those with more knowledge, but somehow up until then the songs or vocal sounds were not intimidating to them! If I made this claim would you or anybody accept here?

[martha_krishna]

I am sorry, I really did not understand any of the replies. All I could glean was "brahmin bashing bad".
I am just glad that lot of the people of my age who listen to Carnatic music see some sense in what TMK has to say (not saying we agree with him all the time) and are not really butthurt by some of the valid societal critique. While we move on, I hope this "TMK evil, we brahmins are the best and nicest" thread will prove cathartic and assuage your hurt egos

[SrinathK]

I am sorry, I really did not understand any of the replies. All I could glean was "brahmin bashing bad".
I am just glad that lot of the people of my age who listen to Carnatic music see some sense in what TMK has to say (not saying we agree with him all the time) and are not really butthurt by some of the valid societal critique. While we move on, I hope this "TMK evil, we brahmins are the best and nicest" thread will prove cathartic and assuage your hurt egos

It's clear that you haven't come to listen. Anyway, the mocking privilege is yours.

[shankarank]

This is not about the Brahmins being nicest and the best or musicians being great human beings. We could as well be third rate people. And there may be plenty of other things about which Brahmins can be bashed. Lack of caste diversity in music is not one of them. And none of our qualities , good or bad, has anything to do with music not reaching anybody.

I know this to be true by hearing/observing how this argument is constructed. It is very similar to U.S Corporations making Americans sensitized to people unlike them in work places, as tech firms wanted to bring in workers from outside due to the degradation engineered by liberals as well as American workers being too mercenary.

This was constructed on the back of the civil rights movement, which was an unique experience of African Americans that was ported into the psyche of the American work place for managing something else altogether. The latter involves people who have no civil rights claim historically. This extrapolation is a subversive device employed the left, sublimated into the liberal discourse.

People like Indians are only too happy to identify themselves into this bucket, when it suits them and then abandon it when taxes become too high!

This idea of XYZ people on how they are, act and dress ( naDai, uDai , bhAvanai) make another ZYX people uncomfortable, is manufactured by nitwits in American academia , dished out to green , ideal minded, youngsters who are less informed about life and the world. And it can be sourced to the needs of American workplace to integrate people from outside, for an efficient trouble free workplace - a purely mercenary need.

The left has already wrecked Europe, but Americans are more tougher. They have reacted to this charade.

The Indian liberal left , the media and the journalists consume this koolade in their training and are made to mouth this charade , and there will be many I am sure who have no idea how all this came about.

And how can this apply to things in India, which has seen lot through it's history and particularly to traditional activities that have passed down purely by private / family effort?

It is true that many of the well to do Brahmins have left India. And quite a few of them come back and support the art. With not many left in India, it could very well be that the art has to find support outside their environs.

But that is not a justification for constructing a false argument like this. If you want to steal something from somebody, you do all this. The factual accuracy of any narrative presented in this discourse is completely irrelevant , and should never be entered into in any discussion. History is in fact irrelevant.

Well if it is relevant, then we need to see how this really played out. This is almost the repeat of what happened to the earlier custodians of music. They are this, they are that and they mistreat their Women, all the same argument of atrocity literature used by Colonial expansionists against native populations worldwide, in an act of thievery.

That Brahmins were mute spectators to this earlier act of treachery during the colonial period, is a history that cannot be changed now.

We have to see this from the perspective of the source , intent and agendas involved.

[harimau]

If anyone doubted the need to start the conversation TMK initiated, I would show this thread as a case in point. It renders the rebuttal case moot. Having been part of a spicmacay group few years ago when I was in my undergrad made me understand how unwelcome and intimidating classical music felt for people who had not been initiated when they were young. I do not understand why it is so difficult to acknowledge that a deeply casteist society will have a strong holding in the art of such a society; and that one can do better in trying to recognize these aspects and work towards making the art we love so much accessible to more people. I have seen first hand the role spicmacay played in my college days. anyway on with your chomsky swamy and whatever emojis that harimau dude wants to employ.

The question is: do the Brahmins make the others feel unwelcome at concerts?

How do we do that? Stare at them with pursed lips? Make loud comments about the ignoramuses who show up?

Come on, give me examples of how we do that so that we can correct our behavior.

Does Nick Haynes feel unwelcome at Chennai Sabhas? Or Lars Fredriksson? Or, are Brahmins being deferential to them but not to each other or to non-Brahmins?

Mindless arguments, repeated ad nauseam by mindless followers!

An IAS officer had a suggestion about how to prevent urination in public spaces. Instead of charging a small fee for using the few pay toilets that the country has, he/she suggested that we pay people a small amount for using the toilets.

In a similar manner, maybe we need not only free admission and reservations for OBCs in concert halls, but we should pay them money to come listen to classical music.

Just like politicians pay for a crowd for their meetings -- 50 rupees plus transportation to and from the venue by truck like herds of cattle -- we could arrange to bring people in from the slums to the TTK Auditorium of Madras Music Academy.

If enough unwashed -- or washed with Cooum water -- masses show up, maybe the Society Ladies will stay away, not wanting to be associated with them. And that may not be a bad thing at all.

You guys are trying to legislate taste. Not going to work. People who like to watch female mud wrestling ( ) are not going to show up for the Bolshoi Ballet.

If you want to legislate taste, at least do what I do: rail against the tup-tup artist, the Duelling Abhangists, the Blind Monkey Song, the Fat Ghost Song, etc.

[kvchellappa]

Harimau,
Your service in turning people away from CM is commendable. If you succeed, TMK also would have succeeded as CM will fold up and all discrimination will end as it is only CM which is at the root of all of it.

[sureshvv]

Harimau makes a number of valid points. Including his feeble attempts to legislate taste

[sureshvv]

I do not understand why it is so difficult to acknowledge that a deeply casteist society will have a strong holding in the art of such a society;

Because it is NOT true. We are a deeply divided society, not just by caste, but by class, language, diet, attire, social mores etc. etc. And yet you will find all kinds of people in a CM concert, engaging with the music and with each other. It is actually a space that brings people together rather than divides them. It is sad that youngsters like you have been confused by some uninformed commentary.

[martha_krishna]

It is sad that youngsters like you have been confused by some uninformed commentary.

I really wish it was just uninformed commentary that had me swayed. My lived reality makes me agree with the "uninformed commentary" more.
and please fear not, we are a more introspective lot and unburdened of these egotistical complexes.
we got it sir Carnatic music community will be at a better place in the years to come

[martha_krishna]

An IAS officer had a suggestion about how to prevent urination in public spaces. Instead of charging a small fee for using the few pay toilets that the country has, he/she suggested that we pay people a small amount for using the toilets.

In a similar manner, maybe we need not only free admission and reservations for OBCs in concert halls, but we should pay them money to come listen to classical music.

hahahaha, this cracked me up (fiance is a PhD in public health with expertise in social norms of toilet use in India)
must be amazing to have the confidence to emit such ... with great elan. Extrapolate to the rest of the output and it all makes sense

[rshankar]

we got it sir Carnatic music community will be at a better place in the years to come

In what way? And how would your generation accomplish it?

[sureshvv]

I really wish it was just uninformed commentary that had me swayed. My lived reality makes me agree with the "uninformed commentary" more.

What is your "lived reality"? Harimau asked some pointed questions that you have chosen not to answer, instead focusing on the toilet humor

[Nick H]

It's usually nice to welcome a newcomer to the forum. Especially one that might perhaps reduce the average age of us old foggies.

But joining to fan the flames of the terrible TMK debate? Oh, please no.

Martha_krishna, I find the extent of the personal poison towards TMK that can be found here to be even worse than his prejudices and semi-literate "professional" writing. But joining in and keeping it all going is not the way to combat it.

As you don't know me, let me tell you that I think that TMK is a remarkable and wonderful musician, and, from what I see of his students, a remarkable and wonderful teacher of music.

He has my full admiration and respect in those areas... But it diminishes fast when he picks up the pen. And I suspect his desire to be famous for being famous. The Kardashian of Karnatic?

I also have no objection to a musician following any parallel career. It's financially necessary for many. I just wish TMK had chosen, Erm... Well, anything, really, other than writing!

All of this has been said before, far too many times. But as this is my first conversation with you, let me finish with yet another repetition... Please try to take an objective, dispassionate view on this question... Where, at least in India, would carnatic music be without the Brahmin community? You can perhaps claim could-haves, most most of them are are probably wouldn't haves, despite carnatic music being supported by non-Brahmins in some parts of the world.

And, if you are not a Brahmin, please tell me when you were last denied entry to a concert, or even to a Brahmin house?

I'm not saying that never happened: history is history. And I'm not saying that it couldn't happen. People are imperfect creatures. Sure, there are those with prejudices.

If you live in a white world with brown skin, no doubt you have experienced prejudice. Do you write off the whole white world? If you encounter a Brahmin whose attitudes belong to the last century, must you write off that community?

[kvchellappa]

The lived reality:
1. The contributors for MA cut across several castes.
2. The Thiruvaiyaru aradhana attendance has a large representation from other castes.
3. In Kerala at least, the patronage of CM is substantially from the other castes.
4. There is a large CM audience in Srilanka without any noticeable Brahmin presence.
5. From the days of trinity, the sishya parampara included other castes.
6. There were non-Brahmin pre-trinity composers and their songs were brought to the fore much before the birth of the champions of the vicious campaign to muddy the atmosphere for the art.
7. Chembai not ony took Yesudas as his sishya, he also refused to perform in the Guruvayur temple if Yesudas was not allowed.
8. Several concert teams had artistes from different castes.
9. Viswanatha iyer learnt from Muthia Pillai among others. He had no qualms to prostrate at the feet of Sundarambal in a movie. GNB prostrated at the feet of Bade Ali Gulam Khan mesmerized by his music.
10. SSI used to listen to TNR to hone up his skills and held him in high regard.
11. Mali shared a special chemistry with Dwaram and Rajamanikkam.
12. T Chowdiah learnt from Bidaram Krishnappa as a resident. Rajamanikkam Pillai learnt from Ramaswamy Iyer. Papa did gurukulam at Govindasamy Pillai’s house. TNR learnt under Krishna Iyer (it was Krishna Iyer who volunteered to teach him) and Vaidyanatha Iyer.
13. Musiri was one of the pall bearers of Dhanammal’s body.
14. All the individual references pertain to a period when caste differences reigned supreme.
One cannot pretend that caste differences do not exist, but to talk of it as obstructing the reach of CM is political. Keeping music away from such distractions is the least one can do to help it along. CM is a niche art with limited audience because of its peculiarities, not because it was quarantined.

[RSR]

If anyone doubted the need to start the conversation TMK initiated, I would show this thread as a case in point. It renders the rebuttal case moot. Having been part of a spicmacay group few years ago when I was in my undergrad made me understand how unwelcome and intimidating classical music felt for people who had not been initiated when they were young. I do not understand why it is so difficult to acknowledge that a deeply casteist society will have a strong holding in the art of such a society; and that one can do better in trying to recognize these aspects and work towards making the art we love so much accessible to more people. I have seen first hand the role spicmacay played in my college days. anyway on with your chomsky swamy and whatever emojis that harimau dude wants to employ.

===========================================================
I am entirely with you, in your appreciation of the effort of spicmacay group and glad that you gained by that experience. Congratulations.

"SPIC MACAY (Society for the Promotion of Indian Classical Music And Culture Amongst Youth) is a non-political, nationwide, voluntary movement founded in 1977 by Dr Kiran Seth, Professor-Emeritus at IIT-Delhi who was awarded the ‘Padma Shri’ for his contribution to the arts in 2009.
SPICMACAY’s intention is to enrich the quality of formal education by increasing awareness about different aspects of Indian heritage and inspiring the young mind to imbibe the values embedded in it. It seeks to inspire youth through experiencing the mysticism embodied in the rich and heterogeneous cultural tapestry of Indian and World Heritage, with a hope that the beauty, grace, values and wisdom embodied in these arts will influence their way of life and thinking and inspire one to become a better human being. For this, the most accomplished artistes of the country render programmes of Indian classical music and dance, folk, poetry, theatre, traditional paintings, crafts & yog primarily in schools and colleges. In 2011, SPIC MACAY was awarded the Rajiv Gandhi Sadbhavana award in recognition of its contribution to youth development.

In 2012-13, 7500+ programmes were organised in more than 1500 institutions in 800 towns in India and 50 towns abroad impacting more than 3 million students. All these programmes were organised by thousands of volunteers – largely students, teachers, housewives, retired people, professionals, young and old. SPIC MACAY celebrates Nishkaam Seva - the spirit of volunteerism "

------------------------------------
can learn more at : http://spicmacay.com/about
---------------------------------------------------------------
The voluntary organization does great work without spreading hatred towards any particular language, community, region. No ideological venom.

[RSR]

some relevant quotes.
"In Chennai, musician N Vijay Siva explains that only the fine arts can effortlessly weave the finer elements in the brain to make a better human being. “For this to happen, we need to open the art forms to everyone.” Through his ‘Build A Rasika’ project, Vijay and his team have been reaching out to schoolchildren in villages around Chennai, Madurai, Trichy, Tanjavur in Tamil Nadu through a one-hour concert interspersed with commentary. “Initially, the students would view this art form as something ‘scary’ and one that is not meant for them. They hardly responded or interacted with us. But we soon found ways to cut this ice,” says the vocalist who has so far reached out to over 150 schools since 1994.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
“In our education system we teach reading, writing and arithmetic. The fourth aspect—heritage—is being neglected,” says Dr Kiran Seth, Delhi-based founder of SPIC MACAY (Society for the Promotion of Indian Classical Music And Culture Amongst Youth). He adds that when children are exposed to the sounds and visuals, they find an innate power in them which will be reflected in the things they do. “We have just trained 300 playschool teachers in Davanagere, Karnataka, on the effective mechanism that they could use to ensure children grasp what they hear.
Accomplished artistes such as Vidwan Lalgudi Jayaraman, Prof T N Krishnan, Vidwan T V Sankaranarayanan, Pt Hariprasad Chaurasia, Pt Shivkumar Sharma, Pt Rajan and Sajan Mishra, and many more have travelled to the smaller places to perform as part of SPIC MACAY events. “The artistes perform in the corridor of a local school or in its courtyard, with young eager eyes keenly observing them,” says the 68-year-old Seth.
--------------------------------------
Hitham Trust -The trust is now working with another group of students in Thillaisthanam village of Thanjavur district. Dr Rama Kaushalya, retired principal of Government Music College, Thiruvaiyaru, who provides support to the children there, roped in Jayashri and team to teach Carnatic music once a week via Skype.

[kvchellappa]

David Shulman in an interview (I am posting the link in General Discussions)
"Having said that… every society in the world has injustice. Usually there are problems with how women are treated, there are social inequalities and social injustice, and that’s part of that whole world. I wouldn’t think that Carnatic music is the arena in which these kinds of issues need to be resolved. So, I support the notion of broadening the appeal and democratizing it, and all of that is a lovely thing. But I wouldn’t focus too much on Brahmin privilege … I don’t think this is something that is intrinsic to the music at all."

[arasi]

Even if there is, it's a futile pursuit to get steeped in its complexity. It's like making a serious study about temple goers and concentrating only on a minority who go to the temple not for darSan, but for eyeing women and to feel their proximity. We can't help it in any way, and they won't go away...Let's better concentrate on music appreciation, is how I see it.
Vijay Siva and other musicians who take music to the younger generation beyond the agrahArA are to be appreciated. If the artistic community does more of it, and without much ado, we are all grateful...

[SrinathK]

Having been part of a spicmacay group few years ago when I was in my undergrad made me understand how unwelcome and intimidating classical music felt for people who had not been initiated when they were young.

Totally agree with this part, but what does this have to do with caste?

In fact, the best of CM from Sarali varsai to RTP is all free on Youtube now... talk of accessibility.

But the efforts of the Spic Macay group are very laudable.

[shankarank]

They must have missed S Balachandar, who would have strummed, pulled and hung on the Strings to make everyone so comfortable, if not complain in between for the late pickup vehicle, and dismiss a request to play with " I am in a mood to bombast you with my answers" , or on the gharaNa question thus: "chemmanguDi style, ariyakkuDi style, maharajapuram style" with impishness, as the audience suggesting "Balachander style", mishearing it (or would you say freudian ear!) and continuing with "Balaramurali style", and then getting it, as the audience persist with their suggestion, with a blush and kuzhanchufying ( with a supple tone) "Balachander style in vINA" etc. etc...

[martha_krishna]

David Shulman in an interview (I am posting the link in General Discussions)
"Having said that… every society in the world has injustice. Usually there are problems with how women are treated, there are social inequalities and social injustice, and that’s part of that whole world. I wouldn’t think that Carnatic music is the arena in which these kinds of issues need to be resolved. So, I support the notion of broadening the appeal and democratizing it, and all of that is a lovely thing. But I wouldn’t focus too much on Brahmin privilege … I don’t think this is something that is intrinsic to the music at all."

oh wow, David Shulman said that! that settles it then. Thank you Sir. I must have dreamt my older relatives saying how we are culturally superior to other castes because we listen to Carnatic music and that "avarige, classical musicina gandhe illa". <3 David Shulman

[rshankar]

You keep repeating yourself- can we move on? Can you start by answering my questions in post #111?

[SrinathK]

David Shulman in an interview (I am posting the link in General Discussions)
"Having said that… every society in the world has injustice. Usually there are problems with how women are treated, there are social inequalities and social injustice, and that’s part of that whole world. I wouldn’t think that Carnatic music is the arena in which these kinds of issues need to be resolved. So, I support the notion of broadening the appeal and democratizing it, and all of that is a lovely thing. But I wouldn’t focus too much on Brahmin privilege … I don’t think this is something that is intrinsic to the music at all."

oh wow, David Shulman said that! that settles it then. Thank you Sir. I must have dreamt my older relatives saying how we are culturally superior to other castes because we listen to Carnatic music and that "avarige, classical musicina gandhe illa". <3 David Shulman

I don't know who you are, but you're barely 6 posts in, and all you're doing is being very haughty and even a touch insulting here to many rasikas who've pulled a lot of load to bring CM to where it is now, more accessible than ever before in human history. Maybe you came from a family that prided itself on listening to CM, well I've had it the other way round with some of my extended set - arrogance works both ways. And right now, you're the one flaunting it.

[kvchellappa]

martha-krishna,
Shulman knows more than you do on the subject. Coming from one who has done his homework, it carries weight. If you go by the colour of the skin, you are guilty of what you are complaining about. It is not the view of a westerner that counts, but that of a knowledgeable one. Testimonial evidence is a valid one even according to the rationalist Russell.
I made a detailed post on why TMK's rant is political.
CM is one of many ways a person can engage in his spare time unless it is his profession. It is not a lucrative profession but for a handful. Art is not the medium for fighting for social justice. The issue of social justice is complex and it is not just Brahmin-nonBrahmin. It is downright dishonest to blame the entire musical fraternity. You can do good work by all means and reach whatever to whomever, but do not have to pelt stones at others. That is neither civilized nor productive of any good.
There are thousands of art forms in which Brahmins are nonstarters and no one is trying to reach them to Brahmins.
A true artist seeks harmony. It will indeed be strange if a musician goes about spreading disharmony.

[kvchellappa]

http://indianexpress.com/article/opinio ... e-5170943/

[Nick H]

oh wow, David Shulman said that! that settles it then. Thank you Sir. I must have dreamt my older relatives saying how we are culturally superior to other castes because we listen to Carnatic music and that "avarige, classical musicina gandhe illa". <3 David Shulman

Take this up with your relatives. We have had enough of it here.

[sureshvv]

http://indianexpress.com/article/opinio ... e-5170943/

Great article. Vocalizes many of the problems I have had analyzing the problem statement as laid out by TMK. May be martha_krishna can address it and show us where the opinion piece goes wrong.

[arasi]

TMK will have his own answers for this article, and if he cares to air them for the benefit of us all, hope he doesn't become D.M Krishna--Demolition Krishna, as the author refers to him

[sureshvv]

I must have dreamt my older relatives saying how we are culturally superior to other castes because we listen to Carnatic music and that "avarige, classical musicina gandhe illa".

So now that you are older and wiser you realize that the problem was with your older relatives and not CM?

[martha_krishna]

I must have dreamt my older relatives saying how we are culturally superior to other castes because we listen to Carnatic music and that "avarige, classical musicina gandhe illa".

So now that you are older and wiser you realize that the problem was with your older relatives and not CM?

Q.E.D

[sankark]

I must have dreamt my older relatives saying how we are culturally superior to other castes because we listen to Carnatic music and that "avarige, classical musicina gandhe illa".

So now that you are older and wiser you realize that the problem was with your older relatives and not CM?

Q.E.D

That you are clueless as to how to fix your family's attitude?

[martha_krishna]

So now that you are older and wiser you realize that the problem was with your older relatives and not CM?

Q.E.D

That you are clueless as to how to fix your family's attitude?

Thankfully, they are a more introspective bunch with egos less fragile.

reg the express article; does much better than the lot here. Having said that
""Above all, one needs the natural gift of music and possibly a good voice... strong memory, distinction to recall specific texts, scales, phrases, from a large.. confusing repertoire...." (Italian.chef.kiss.gif). I guess all of you nodded your head in agreement

[SrinathK]

Ok folks, it's clear he (or whoever) is just here to flaunt his sarcasm and not to listen, this is a waste of time... next him.

[rshankar]

Thankfully, they are a more introspective bunch with egos less fragile.
reg the express article; does much better than the lot here.

Very much like "vAi sollil vIraraDi" and "seivadaRiyAraDi" illustrated here

[rshankar]

Thankfully, they are a more introspective bunch with egos less fragile.
reg the express article; does much better than the lot here.

Ok folks, it's clear he (or whoever) is just here to flaunt his sarcasm and not to listen, this is a waste of time... next him.

Agree. Very much like "vAi sollil vIraraDi" and "seivadaRiyAraDi" illustrated here

[martha_krishna]

Ok folks, it's clear he (or whoever) is just here to flaunt his sarcasm and not to listen, this is a waste of time... next him.

"listen" eh. nope.

and do the venerable folks agree with this take (indianexpress article)?
"And above all, one needs the natural gift of music and possibly a good voice too. Attributes such as strong memory, distinction to recall specific texts, scales, phrases, and patterns from a very large and potentially confusing repertoire, imagination and ability to assimilate from other forms of art are also unavoidable elements that make a good musician. The most challenging of them all is that it’s a very very uncertain profession with very low chance of success."

[Nick H]

and do the venerable folks agree with this take (indianexpress article)?
"And above all, one needs the natural gift of music and possibly a good voice too. Attributes such as strong memory, distinction to recall specific texts, scales, phrases, and patterns from a very large and potentially confusing repertoire, imagination and ability to assimilate from other forms of art are also unavoidable elements that make a good musician. The most challenging of them all is that it’s a very very uncertain profession with very low chance of success."

Certainly not. People who are rubbish at music, have lousy memories, no sense of pitch, poor rhythmic ability, and who can't tell one song from another, can all make just-great musicians. Anywhere in the world. Any genre.

Ermmmm... right?

(There you have it, actually: the reasons why I'm in the audience, not on the [any] stage )

(Mind you... I'm probably not very venerable)

[martha_krishna]

hahaha. noted

on a serious note, I feel that the above quoted opinion is deeply ingrained in some us faulty human beings (pristine ones, kindly excuse); this helps us reconcile or maybe even be proud of the fact that only a small section of the most diverse society engages with art form regularly. While there are other art forms that require equal or more rigor with maybe even less financial benefits with a more diverse following and practitioners.

@uncles, please do not get angry. You are all nice people

[rshankar]

@uncles, please do not get angry. You are all nice people

Not angry...irritated and disappointed because all you’re doing is repeating what you accuse previous generations of having done: we grant that you can restate the perceived “problem” as well as how lofty your generation is in various ways without repeating yourself (money well-spent). Where you seem to be stuck is in articulating your (generation’s) egalitarian plans. All we hear is a lot of noise (empty vessels and all?)
Now, the question is whether we should tar your generation collectively, or consider it just one individual’s issue?

PS: We’re not all nice, just as I’m sure you’re lot is not all boring!

[martha_krishna]

Uncle, please do not tar my entire generation on my account. They do not deserve it. They need your blessings etc etc

also while at it, do you agree with this?
"And above all, one needs the natural gift of music and possibly a good voice too. Attributes such as strong memory, distinction to recall specific texts, scales, phrases, and patterns from a very large and potentially confusing repertoire, imagination and ability to assimilate from other forms of art are also unavoidable elements that make a good musician. The most challenging of them all is that it’s a very very uncertain profession with very low chance of success."

[kvchellappa]

Did you not drag them in here? Why would they have come otherwise?
Even if all of us talk nonsense, culture demanded that you be polite.
TMK has every right to say what he does because he has done hard work in music at least. He knows music. It is all right to support him as to oppose him, but it has to come with reasons that are cogently stated, not some push here and a shove there. If you join the discussion, you must meet the points raised, not selectively pass snide remarks.

[martha_krishna]

Did you not drag them in here? Why would they have come otherwise?

Sarchasm alert.

anyway, given that you linked the article, do you agree with the point the author makes, the one I have quoted above?

I will paste the quote again here
"And above all, one needs the natural gift of music and possibly a good voice too. Attributes such as strong memory, distinction to recall specific texts, scales, phrases, and patterns from a very large and potentially confusing repertoire, imagination and ability to assimilate from other forms of art are also unavoidable elements that make a good musician. The most challenging of them all is that it’s a very very uncertain profession with very low chance of success."

[Nick H]

I will paste the quote again here

Why do you keep harping on about that? I thought we had agreed, even with a little humour, that what is mentioned is true of any serious, no scrub the serious, any music? So it leads where? To something like carnatic music is a scholarly music that makes high demands of scholarship, memory, study, etc, etc, and Brahmin tradition includes, those blah blah blahs and more therefore...

Because if so, then I think you are confusing causation with the extruded middle, or whatever the fancy logistical-falsehood terminology would be. Or maybe not. Maybe you are going somewhere else entirely. Come, tell! The guy with his stick over the symbol is getting a sore arm awaiting your revelation

(But then, when some of the "uncles" here get going, he gives up and goes home)

[sureshvv]

also while at it, do you agree with this?

So what exactly did he say again?

[sankark]

I will paste the quote again here

Maybe you are going somewhere else entirely. Come, tell! The guy with his stick over the symbol is getting a sore arm awaiting your revelation

(But then, when some of the "uncles" here get going, he gives up and goes home)

OTOH, lets not bother with the answer. For all we know, martha_krishna could be a unsupervised cognitive/machine language computing bot that is stuck in a infinite loop, yet to get into reasoning, and could eventually end up in the great revelation

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_In ... et_dog.jpg

[SrinathK]

Now that you mention it, I hear soon they won't be able to tell a chatbot apart from a real online human being over the internet. Good thing I've seen many of you in flesh and blood....

[harimau]

An IAS officer had a suggestion about how to prevent urination in public spaces. Instead of charging a small fee for using the few pay toilets that the country has, he/she suggested that we pay people a small amount for using the toilets.

In a similar manner, maybe we need not only free admission and reservations for OBCs in concert halls, but we should pay them money to come listen to classical music.

hahahaha, this cracked me up (fiance is a PhD in public health with expertise in social norms of toilet use in India)
must be amazing to have the confidence to emit such ... with great elan. Extrapolate to the rest of the output and it all makes sense

Seventy years of brainwashing by politicians that everything wrong with India is the fault of the Brahmins has found its perfect receptacle in you.

You believe somehow the non-Brahmins can be brought back into the CM fold if only the Brahmins do not monopolize opportunities and graciously accept non-Brahmins into the fold.

Let me tell you the reality: Non-Brahmins looked at the success of Brahmins in the 1910-1950 timeframe and concluded that this was because the Brahmins possessed the right college degree. Mind you, I am saying degree, not education. That is because the politicians told them that they will make college admissions available to the non-Brahmins on a preferential basis, without regard to merit.

What is the result?

When recently Smt M Pramila Gurumurthy was appointed the vice-chancellor of the Tamil Nadu Music and Fine Arts University, there were rantings and ravings on public fora.

A person with a limited intellectual capabilities claimed that it was because Smt Pramila was a Brahmin. In fact, at the press conference announcing the appointment, a TV reporter asked the Minister of Education if in fact the position was "reserved for members of a certain community" at the behest of this intellectually challenged person. The minister replied that the selection was based on the unanimous recommendation of the selection committee.

A couple of days later, the minister explicitly clarified that Smt Gurumurthy is not a Brahmin.

Did this stop the idiots?

No.

Linking the name Pramila Gurumurthy to S Gurumurthy, editor of the satirical magazine Thuglak, one contender for the job claimed it was a conspiracy by the Brahmins to monopolize CM and to prevent folk music from being considered an art form.

A couple of days later, after somebody probably told him that the lady in question is no relation to S Gurumurthy, he went on a tirade claiming that she is a Brahmin because she is the granddaughter of the musician S Rajam through his son Gurumurthy.

She is the wife of S Rajam's son, not daughter.

You can watch all of this nonsense on Nakkeeran-TV on YouTube. Do a search. If you are capable of doing it.

People with such low or non-existent levels of intelligence believe that they are qualified for the job.

You should read the comments of the non-Brahmins on these videos too to realize how stupid these people are and swallow any anti-Brahmin propaganda.

I recall on a totally different board relating to software engineering how a non-Brahmin alleged that while his 4-year engineering degree qualified him for a job in the US, he found Brahmins with 3-year non-engineering degrees working in the same field in the US and attributed it to the Brahmin managers in his organization.

Let me say this as bluntly as I can: non-Brahmins do not have the dedication, the tenacity, the determination to succeed, etc., to the same degree as Brahmins do.

That is not just my opinion.

Let me relate an anecdote.

About 5 years ago, in his Carnatic Music concert at Narada Gana Sabha, Sri Yesudas said that if there is a next birth for him, he would like to be born a Brahmin.

The audience, full of clueless Brahmins and a few High Society non-Brahmins, was stunned. The violinist on stage himself said later that this comment on a sensitive topic by Yesudas should not have been made.

Yesudas then continued and said he didn't want to be born a Brahmin because it offered special privileges -- in fact, it didn't, he said -- but because only Brahmins have the determination to work hard at whatever job they undertake to do.

So, there you are, Ms Clueless.

A non-Brahmin, and a Christian at that, castigating the non-Brahmins for their intellectual laziness.

I know you will find that hard to take.

As Jack Nicholson says in a movie, "You want the truth? You can't handle the truth".

[kvchellappa]

While the crusade against imaginary Brahmin domination of CM by design is balderdash and political, the contention that only Brahmins are capable of dedicated work is untrue, to put it mildly. Brahmins had a headstart because of centuries of being in the field of education and that legacy was helpful. I do not think we should go communal in the group that is devoted to music. TMK's worst sin is that he did it. Our naivete is that we swallow it. Everyone is doing something important. It is not that only those in some plump positions are doing. In fact some of the dirty work being done by some is more precious than what the software and other professionals do or even what TMK does in music or his rants. I feel we should edit out all communal references.

[harimau]

I must have dreamt my older relatives saying how we are culturally superior to other castes because we listen to Carnatic music and that "avarige, classical musicina gandhe illa".

Have you associated with any, even a single one non-Brahmin Carnatic musicians?

I know several.

They are not going around pissing and moaning like T M Krishna does.

As one musician said, T M Krishna is angling for an appointed seat in the Rajya Sabha (Upper House of the Parliament).

So, stop your stupid postings based on incomplete understanding of reality.

Enough already!

[harimau]

.....I feel we should edit out all communal references.

Why? Because the truth is unpalatable or politically incorrect?

I will amend my statement.

The only other caste that is really careful about the final result of their work is the barbar community.

Because if your haircut is not right, you won't get off the barber's chair. And refuse to pay him. And make a scene.

Now, are you happy?