meaning of canduru varNuni

vidya · Post by **vidya** » 21 Jan 2008, 05:04

1. Why is the phrase canduru varNuni in the shrI rAga pancaratnam considered incorrect?

Nookala Satyanarayana (who I can safely assume knows Telugu) in his monograph on the Pancharatnams says that varNa refers to guNa or qualities. And says it is to be interpreted as one pleasant as the moon.

2.Also what exactly is the issue with nilipi. I am assuming the reference is to the line mAnasa vanacara sanchAramu nilipi (ie stopping the monkey-like movements of the mind) Why should it be salipi?

I quote from nookala's monograph on the Pancaratnams :

It looks paradoxical for superficial knowledge.But Tyagaraja is deep and scholarly.
Here varNa means the quality but not the color - varNO divjAdi shuklAdi yaGnE guNA kadhAsu ca' according
to the Samskrita dictionary. Therefore it is clear that canduru varNuni means that it is the quality of the moon which is
pleasant , cool, shining by which the entire humanity on the earth feels happy .Valmiki describes Sri rama
as 'sOmavat priya darshanaH' etc..

Can someone please clarify?

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 21 Jan 2008, 11:52

Vidya,
I request you to refer to following thread where answer to your query lies.
http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?id=967&p=1 Post #5

I may add here. These variations were not 'invented' by me. These are already available in published books and are rendered so by some senior musicians correctly.

In regard Nukala Satyanarayana's explanation, I bow my head before his erudition. But 'sOmvat priya darSanaH' refers to the coolness of appearance and not the colour of the Lord. In some kritis Thyagaraja himself has described the Lord so.

As regards to 'nilipi' and 'salipi' - the whole sentence is to be taken together. After going through my observations, please post your further queries.

vidya · Post by **vidya** » 23 Jan 2008, 05:25

Govindan Sir,
I checked the thread that was referred to. I am in no way implying that these variations are invented and am aware that there are a whole lot of them.

- canduru varNuni | vadanuni

There are two versions of the line. Based on the interpretation nUkala has provided, why should canduru varNuni be considered 'incorrect'?
All one could say here is that there is a variation in this line and there are two possible interpretations given.

- mAnasa vanacara sancAramu nilip | mAnasa vana cara sancAramu salipi
why would nilipi be wrong if vanacara is interpreted as monkey/ forest -roamer (animal)
mAnasa - mindl vanacara - monkey
So the meaning would be to stop the sancAra of the mind which is a monkey and then bAguga pogadify the mUrti .
Vanacara for monkey and nishAcara for rakshasa are all quite common usages that occur in the Valmiki Ramayana.

Unless there is a way to ascertain that these two alternate meanings are grammatically - syntactically and semantically impossible I am not sure I would classify them as 'incorrect',

Again variations can occur due to different reasons:

1.The composer is also a creative individual. For all one knows he might have played around with the versions and taught one version to say Veena Kuppaiyer and another to Walajahpet Venkatramana Bhagavatar. One thing would be interesting to note.There are two hrasva syllables in vadanuni and a hrasva + conjunct consonant in varNuni which would lead to slightly different musical structures.It would be nice to compare the notations of these two sahitya variations. This however might not apply to the second line where there is no difference in syllable count.

2.Errors of transcription
This could be the case if there is no musical variation and there is no way to justify the grammar. The Adhari in nIlAyatAkshi seems to such a case.

In both these lines I would conclude that it is the former not the latter.

sindhu · Post by **sindhu** » 23 Jan 2008, 10:48

I was just wondering - varNuni may also mean describing, as in the case of varNanai (description).

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 23 Jan 2008, 13:06

vidya,
'canduru varNuni' could be correct only if we decide that this is an exeception to the rule that Sri Thyagaraja has, in no kriit of his, described the Lord so. By all means go ahead and treat it to be correct. Who can stop anyone?

Yesterday I was listening in WS to one of the great CM singers singing the Kriti - 'rAma nAmam bhajarE' rAga madhyamAvati. In that there is a caraNa -

ekkaDaina hariyokkaDanucu madi cakkatanamu kani sokki santatamu (rAma nAmam bhajarE)

(Having a clear understanding that it is Lord hari alone (okkaDanucu) everywhere (ekkaDaina) and, (thereby) being enamoured by Him in the mind, chant the names of Lord zrI rAma always.)

This singer sings this as 'ekkDaina hariyekkaDanucu' - Initially I thought this was slip of tongue but when he repeated the line four times, I had to conclude that that is how he has learnt it. I may add that he is a Telugu.

(When 'ekkaDanacu' is used in the second occurrence also, then this charana would mean "Having a clear understanding that it is Lord hari is everywhere (ekkaDanucu) everywhere (ekkaDaina) and, (thereby) being enamoured by Him in the mind, chant the names of Lord zrI rAma always.) Whatever that might mean.....

I had heard in earlier occasions Telugu singers singing Thyagaraja's songs wrongly. Obviously I am to conclude that musicians - by and large - do not care for words. Should I conclude that that is the Parampara of CM?

As regards 'mAnasa vana cara vara sancAramu salipi (nilipi) mUrti bAguga poDaganE vArendarO mahAnubhAvulu'.

Vidya,
if you are one such person who has experienced what is 'mAnasa sancAram', I simply bow out because, I cannot speak before an experience - mine is an intellectual argument.

Assuming that we are speaking at intellectual level, if 'vana cara' is to mean 'monkey', then what is the word 'vara' doing there? So that would be translated as 'stopping the blessed (vara) wandering of the mind....' Right?. Obviously, if 'monkey' is meant that 'vara' is superfluous.

Further, we should look at the aim of the 'sancAram' - 'mUrti bAguga poDaganE vAru' - 'those who behold the form (of the Lord).... If you simply stop the wandering of the mind, where is the 'mUrti' coming from?

There is a kriti 'mAnasa sancararE rAmE' - rAga punnAgavarALi. Going by the meaning defined by you, I should conclude that this 'sancAramu' also refers to 'monkey' only. There is a famous kRti of Sadasiva Brahmendra 'brahmaNi mAnasa sancararE'. Obviously this also would refer to 'monkey only.

Obviously, human mind is very ingenious - I humbly state that this is a typical case of 'pillayAr piDikkappoi kurangAga muDindadu' - let me remain with my 'piLLayAr'.

When that great Bhava queen of CM - MS could sing a Thyagaraja Kriti wrongly - then anyone can sing anything wrongly.

I have been translating the kritis only from 'bhakti' point of view and I have no baggage of music or parampara to weigh me down or to guide me. Once you drop the baggage of music, you too will realise what I say.

vidya · Post by **vidya** » 23 Jan 2008, 17:56

Yes, the 'vara' qualifier appears to be problematic. even if one does a convoluted anvayam even then it does not seem to
make sense. I see your point in that case.

Whether music is a baggage or bhakti and emotions (as opposed to a shAnta bhAva) or intellectualization is a baggage are all personal POVs and I prefer not to opinionate on those.Each to her own.

shishya · Post by **shishya** » 23 Jan 2008, 18:15

vgvindan wrote:
There is a kriti 'mAnasa sancararE rAmE' - rAga punnAgavarALi. Going by the meaning defined by you, I should conclude that this 'sancAramu' also refers to 'monkey' only. There is a famous kRti of Sadasiva Brahmendra 'brahmaNi mAnasa sancararE'. Obviously this also would refer to 'monkey only.

In both of these cases, there is no reference to vanacara, hence there is no reference to monkey.

While I agree that the inclusion of vara is problematic in endarO, maybe Tyagaraja meant that once the mind stops wandering like a monkey, the 'mUrti' will manifest itself in the person's mind.

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 23 Jan 2008, 22:17

shishya,
In the Sadasiva Brahmendra kriti and the Thyagaraja Kriti 'mAnasa sancara rE' - 'sancara' is in verbial form. You will agree that in these two kritis 'sancara' means 'to perform sancAra' and not 'stop sancAra'. In the 'endarO mahAnubhAvulu' ,this 'sancara' (verb) has been changed to 'sancAramu salipi'.

In the Sadasiva Brahmendra kriti the object is 'brahman' (brahmaNi) and in the Thyagarajaj Kriti (mAnasa sancara rE), the object is 'rAma' (rAmE).

The Sadasiva Brahmendra kriti and the Thyagaraja Kriti (mAnasa sancara rE), are addressed to the mind (mAnasa). However, 'endurO mahAnubhAvulu' is not addressed to the mind.

Therefore, 'mAnasa vana cara vara sancAramu salipi' is equal to 'brahmaNi sancara rE' and 'sancara rE rAmE'.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 23 Jan 2008, 22:35

vgv,

I also think your point about vara is quite valid (isnt thisi sort similar to the argument in dariNi? If it is tripurasundari - then how can it be tripurasundariNi - i.e. Ni there similar to vara here?)

But I must say I am quite surprised by your following comments:
if you are one such person who has experienced what is 'mAnasa sancAram', I simply bow out because, I cannot speak before an experience - mine is an intellectual argument.
"If you simply stop the wandering of the mind, where is the 'mUrti' coming from?

Isnt there a common thread in Hindu philosophy, that in the path to salvation, the first (but hardest) thing one must do is to control the wavering of mind? Isnt that why people meditate and do sadhana? You do that and you concentrate on the Lord - isnt that the path of yoga? If your mind wavers, how are going to do sincere penance to the mUrti? So I am puzzled by your two statements there.

IMO the TKG provided *meaning* would make sense, very much so in alignment with thinking of Hindu mystics, saints etc. (i.e. like Thyagaraga), EXCEPT for the presence of "vara", which does trump the justification for that meaning quite a bit. So unless a way is there to explain the presence of "vara" in that context, we still have trouble. But to say "that stopping the wandering mind" intellectually does not make sense in the context of Bhakthi - the one practised by Thyagaraja ?!?? I am sure I am misunderstanding you as that intellectual argument does not seem to make sense to me. Pl. clarify.

Arun

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 23 Jan 2008, 22:37

shAnta bhAva

Yes, a nice usage. The bhakti of Dikshtar comes in the category of SAnta bhakti. Whereas the bhakti of Thyagaraja, Meera, Surdas, Andal - to name a few, come in the category of 'anurAga'.

In the case of Dikshitar, you can only look at him with awe and admire him.

In the case of Thyagaraja et all, you can yourself feel the pangs from their outpourings and actually 'participate' in their anguish. Their kritis - songs - are autobiographical in nature which can be emulated by lesser mortals like us.

In another thread on GNB, I brought out the Thyagaraja kriti 'nA jIvAdhAra'. In this kriti, the SAnta bhakti of Dikshitar and anurAga bhakti of Thyagara converge. That is what Rajaji said in his introduction to MS rendition of 'bhaja gOvindam' - jnAna and bhakti are two sides of the same coin - or words to that effect.

jnAna attains consummation in true bhakti, and bhakti in true jnAna. However, my posting has become a matter of derision for intellectuals.

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 23 Jan 2008, 22:59

arun,
Regarding 'bowing out before experience' is concerned, I may clarify that if the person to whom I am talking has indeed gone through the experience of 'sancAram' all by his/her-self, then it would be blasphemous on my part to contradict an experience because I have not gone through that stage, not yet.

Coming to the intellectual arguments, my statement - "If you simply stop the wandering of the mind, where is the 'mUrti' coming from? - is a rehash of the line of the 'endarO mahAnubhAvulu'.

The line reads mAnasa vana cara vara sancAramu salipi (nilipi) mUrti bAguga poDaganE vArendarO mahAnubhAvulu

If you substitute 'salipi' (perform) with 'nilipi' (stop), the object 'mUrti bAguga poDaganE' cannot be explained. Who is this 'mUrti' being referred to? IMO, the 'mAnasa vana cara' is the 'mUrti' implied here. That's why I posed the question.

Regarding (meditation techniques) which one should come first, we are entering into a highly disputable area. Yet, with whatever little knowledge I have, I shall try to answer your query. Stopping the mind cannot be an exercise in itself. It is not possible to arrest the mind unless you show it another objective - otherwise what results is only sleep. It has to be a positive frame that should be before the mind and not a SUnya. As it is possible to argue for or against what I said, I would not like to elaborate more.

In regard to 'dArini telusukoNTi' kRti, the problem arose because the neraval was like this -
dArini telusukoNTi tripura sundArini telusukoNTi - where the 'tripura sundari' was changed as 'tripura sundAri' and in order to justify that neraval, 'dArini' (beginning word) was changed to 'darini' - an ingenious way. But a deep study of the kriti lets the cat out. It can never be 'dari', it has to be 'dAri' only.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 23 Jan 2008, 23:07

thanks. But my point is that "stopping the wandering of mind" does not necessarily equate to "blanking the mind". (the latter usually offered as a later step in some paths of yoga). Doesnt it also meant stop the wandering and focus on one thing (i.e Lord). In fact, if one were to try ti do that, one must (try to) stop the wandering of mind, which brings all the unwanted baggage (i.e. our desires, prejudices, etc. etc.). So here mUrti could just mean Lord implying rAma. Perhaps a stretch based on the words here, but my point was that the *concept/meaning* of the alternative explanation certainly does seem be inline even with Bhakthi Yoga.

thanks for the clarification on dAriNi

Arun

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 23 Jan 2008, 23:14

stop the wandering and focus on one thing (i.e Lord).

That is what exactly meant by 'mAnasa vana cara sancAramu salipi' - meaning 'keep the focus on Him' and thereby 'mUrti bAguga poDaga' - to behold Him well (so that that mUrti gets implanted in the mind - then there is no being defocussed afterwards).

Once you shift the focus, we have crossed the stage of 'stopping', isn't it?

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 23 Jan 2008, 23:19

I dont disagree, but IF we take vara out, dont words align with other meaning i.e. stop the wandering on mind, and behold the Lord. That also makes sense but again only IF vara is not there - which of course is hypothetical).

The point was stopping the wandering of the mind is not something that is incompatible with beholding the Lord - in fact it is very much compatible with it.

And hence the argument against the alternative meaning IMO rests only on the presence of vara, and not that the meaning somehow is still incorrect with the principles of Bhakthi Yoga as you perhaps raised (?).

In other words, nilipi would have been fine, except for the presence of vara.

Arun

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 23 Jan 2008, 23:36

arun,
In general terms, I fully agree with you.
In regard to this kriti, I partially agree with you because, had this word 'salipi' not been given in any of the books, I would have glibly accepted the position (of stopping). But 'salipi' is given in two books - clearly. How can I ignore it - notwithstanding 'vara'?

mAnasa vana cara sancAramu salipi mUrti bAguga poDaganE vArendarO - (less word 'vara') makes perfect sense.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 23 Jan 2008, 23:49

yes vara cannot be ignored, nor can one argue that salipi doesnt fit (either way).

nilipi would have fit if vara wasnt there, and I think the meaning conveyed in that case perhaps rings more (i.e. is powerful/attractive) to some people

Arun

S.Govindaswamy · Post by **S.Govindaswamy** » 26 Jan 2008, 01:55

Re : 'mAnasa vana cara vara sancAramu salipi (nilipi)
Vidya has confirmed that as per vAlmIki rAmAyaNa vanacara means monkey. Hence mAnasa vana cara is same as manakkuraGgu/manamennum kuraGgu (மனக்குரங்கு /மனமென்னும் குரங்கு). Vara can be either an adjective or noun. As adjective it qualifies sancAramu and means great (?) wanderings. As noun vanacara vara will mean the glorified monkey called mind. The question is why has tyAgarAja used this laudatory word. I feel that he has used it sarcastically. He has used sarcasm in number of kritis like teliyalEru rAma bhakti mArgamu, enta muddO entasogasO, manasu nilpa sakti lEkapOtE. The meanings according to me are 1) mAnasa vana cara varuni saJcaramu nilipi.

2) mAnasa vana caruni vara saJcAramu nilipi.

The syntanxapostrophe வேற்றுமை உருபு is implied.
Govindaswamy

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 26 Jan 2008, 12:08

He has used sarcasm in number of kritis

Indeed; but his sarcasms are 'ingitamerigi' - knowing the place and occasion. This is the least occasion - where he is saluting 'mahAnubhAvulu' - that he would have used sarcasm.

vidya · Post by **vidya** » 26 Jan 2008, 21:23

If the same vanacara line were to occur in say duDukugala or the Arabhi composition I would tend towards the nilipi line and the sarcasm. In this case , somehow the salipi line does fit much better with the emotional context of the rest of the composition.I do agree that the monkey interpretation does seem to take something away from the general sense of profoundity in this composition.

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 26 Jan 2008, 22:05

I would like add a little to what vidya has said.
This kriti is about the 'mahAnubhAvas'. Sri Thyagaraja is describing the mental state of those mahAnubhAvas - not even himself.

hRdaya-aravindamuna jUci brahmAnandamu-anubhavincu vAru-endarO- anupallavi

.
Please take note of the word 'brahmAnandam' - Supreme Bliss.

In Charana 5 the wordings jagamu-ellanu sudhA dRshTicE brOcu vAru - in all probability, refers to sage Narada and the like.