Sangita Kalanidhi-2008?

neelotpal.m.s · Post by **neelotpal.m.s** » 06 Jun 2008, 20:24

though mukta amma played second fiddle to brinda amma, she was only given 'sangita kala acharya'.With the amount of vidwat that she had, the amount of music she stored in her mind as she belonged to 'oral tradition' ,she should have been a 'sangita kalanidhi' 'kalanidhi' generally means a treasurehouse of something,but its literal meaning in sanskrit is'one who exhibits the 'kala' i,e. , it means chandra's rays ,hence 'kalanidhi' means ' moon'

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 06 Jun 2008, 20:34

I think he had a heart problem around that time. How wonderful that he overcame that and is singing his 'heart out' now, in his late eighties!

SSK · Post by **SSK** » 07 Jun 2008, 01:34

Vidwans and Vidushi's such as Brinda & Muktha are way above the caliber of Chennai Music Academy's titling ceremony "Sangeetha Kalanidhi". There are quite a few vidwans in this category. They will always remain in the hearts of rasikas who have extensively listened to the musical greats of 19th and 20th century.

For example legendary vidwan Karaikudi Sambhasiva Iyer received Sangeetha Kalanidhi where as his elder brother Karaikudi Subbarama Iyer didn't get any such recognition. Yet, he was a great vainika and a composer. He composed wonderful "Chitteswaram" for compositions such as Tyagaraja's "Sobillu Sapthaswara in Ragam Jaganmohini" and Muthuswamy Dikshithar's "Ramachandram Bhavayami in Vasantha Ragam". As I always maintain awards and title do not for a moment enhance the merit of an artist, nor does the lack of such titles do away with the skill of an individual.

So, as long we as rasikas are aware of the vidwath of any vidwan or vidushi irrespective of the list of honors and titles attached to their names, we can always help to keep true carnatic music alive, for generations to come. In this regard it is also important to educate our kids and encourage them to read about such vidwans. There are plenty of sources of books. As we approach summer break for middle schoolers and high schoolers in US, it may be the perfect time jump start the summer reading program.

gn.sn42 · Post by **gn.sn42** » 07 Jun 2008, 03:07

SSK wrote:...read about such vidwans. There are plenty of sources of books.

Could you provide some examples of such books in English? Also, where could one obtain copies?

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 07 Jun 2008, 05:05

ssk,
You put it all in perspective. Getting a sangeeta kalanidhi is not necessary for one to be (or to have been) a great vidvAn or vidUshi! They are embellishments, that's all.
Still, any contest evokes this kind of interest--an Oscar, championships in sports, Miss World and so on. Are the winners the best always? Not really!

sadananthan · Post by **sadananthan** » 07 Jun 2008, 06:17

Frankly, SK stinks. They have been giving it to artists who are on the verge of being"deceased" or soon that go way. Few years ago, they gave it to a nadaswaram vidwan, finally, who passed away within a year of receiving it. Then there is Vellore Ramabadran, who should have been given the title long ago but they gave at a time when he needs help to get onto the stage. Last year they gave to a mridangist who came on a wheel chair! No offense meant, but why weren't these people recognized long ago. In my opinion, run away from SK, if you are old and in different health.
By the way who cares for SK? No body outside of Chennai or at best the "brahminical" circle of CM even know about it. Even North India cares two hoots for SK. Considering that CM now has more , money making avenues in NA, SK means zilch.

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 07 Jun 2008, 06:30

Nothing is wrong in recognizing those legends even posthumously.

sadananthan · Post by **sadananthan** » 07 Jun 2008, 06:58

Nothing is wrong in recognizing those legends even posthumously.

Ridiculous to the core. If they are recognized posthumously, what is the purpose? Are they going to read the Hindu from up there!
Like all world recognized awards, SK should be "age free", other wise it is only worth the paper it is written on.

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 07 Jun 2008, 07:11

Results attached with materialism lacks dignity. I believe legacy is something that goes even after death.

sadananthan · Post by **sadananthan** » 07 Jun 2008, 07:38

Can you point out one artist who would not mind receiving the SK "posthumously"? Why did LG refuse the award? Certainly there is a "material" return associated with all the awards, be it the Nobel Prize or the SK. May be SK carries no cash, but the artists who have won it make it a marketable commodity everywhere.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 07 Jun 2008, 08:53

Sadananthan,
Two little observations: Vellore Ramabhadran did not need any help in getting up the stage until I last saw him in January. As for last year's SK, he had had a fall just before or at the beginning of the season and had to cancel a few concerts as well.
No. I am not saying that they are young or that young people should not be given SK!

vigneshbal · Post by **vigneshbal** » 08 Jun 2008, 00:02

neelotpal.m.s wrote:i think it should beT.H.Vinayakaaram

I also wish it is.. Good choice..

vigneshbal · Post by **vigneshbal** » 08 Jun 2008, 00:04

mri_fan wrote:Although I am admittedly biased on my slant for mridangam artists, I think Karaikudi Mani is due for serious consideration. He has definately established a bani that is extremely popular and will stand the test of time. He also has made very strong efforts to popularize carnatic music with his Sruthi Laya groups. He also maintains an impressive number of students.

I agree..But I dont think K.Mani will accept it.. He has not accepted any titles/awards. Except the title "Guru" which was conferred on him by swami ji.. So Another deserving candidate will be missed!!!

Sundara Rajan · Post by **Sundara Rajan** » 08 Jun 2008, 06:28

I second the suggestion to award the 2008 sangIta kalAnidhi to maNakkAl rangarAjan. It is long overdue.

s_hari · Post by **s_hari** » 08 Jun 2008, 06:50

If age, experience and knowledge is criteria... then

1. Kalpagam Swaminathan - vainika
2. Parassala B Ponnamaal

-hari

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 08 Jun 2008, 07:24

And teaching!
Hari,
Happy that both of them are women...

s_hari · Post by **s_hari** » 08 Jun 2008, 07:25

More seriously, is there a criteria for SK award? Is this known public? I am curious to know more on selection process.

-hari

sadananthan · Post by **sadananthan** » 08 Jun 2008, 18:15

From history, these would appear to be some of the requirements
(1) Be very very old, with the chances of continuing your music being very little after getting the SK.
(2) Be a brahmin. preferably an Iyengar
(3) Be close to The Hindu and the TTK family
(4) Be a Tamilian
(5) If an accompanist, should have played mostly for Ariyakudi

mri_fan · Post by **mri_fan** » 08 Jun 2008, 19:19

(1) Be very very old, with the chances of continuing your music being very little after getting the SK.
If SSI had stopped singing when he was 39, I don't think we'd have any recordings of him

I guess you're trying to start some controversy

Sathej · Post by **Sathej** » 08 Jun 2008, 19:50

Almost 95% (if not more) of SK recipients, who are alive now, are still performing. Barring Palghat Raghu, all the other SKs of recent years - UKS, Sikkil Sisters, TVS, VR, MC,TNS are all performing.
Sathej

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 08 Jun 2008, 20:26

Interesting analysis, Sadananthan! The 'in favor of Iyengars' point is amusing. If you asked the Iyengars of Chennai, they would say it is more the other way! I am not saying it, and to me vidvat and eligibility alone counts. There are many such out there, thank goodness and Sk is after all an annual award for one (?). There are dozens of prizes and awards out there, and as I once said, even the Nobel which is known the world over and brings with it a lot of money, is fleeting in its glory. Finally, the legacy that the musicians leave behind is what counts. Yes, I too wish that the bounty of CM was there for those who were not born brahmins in earlier days. History cannot be changed. How I wish one could change it going back to the past--not only in music but in the more important aspect of our lives, the social aspect!
Yet, even then, great talent could not be smothered in some cases. That is where Art gains more importance in our lives. It is supposed to unite, erase artificial divisions.
As for awards, let us not add more weight to where they come from and how they are administered. SK is one of the many such awards. Some greats win, some lose but their abilities remain with us for us to enjoy their music and hopefully for the future generations to be inspired by CM...

vigneshbal · Post by **vigneshbal** » 08 Jun 2008, 23:10

sadananthan wrote:From history, these would appear to be some of the requirements
(1) Be very very old, with the chances of continuing your music being very little after getting the SK. (

Semmangudi was the only known exception to this... None of the SK's are at their best when awarded/post award.. Even if Trichy sankaran/Karaikudi mani/Vinayakaram (Slightly biased towards laya vidwans, sorry) were to be awarded, they are no way near their all time best..

Vignesh

mahesh_narayan · Post by **mahesh_narayan** » 08 Jun 2008, 23:37

Has Raghu Sir stopped performing for good? I hope thats not true !!.

sadananthan · Post by **sadananthan** » 09 Jun 2008, 07:45

Can some body make a list of of brahmins vs non brahmins who received the SK? Also see if you can further divide the brahmin category to iyers vs iyengars. I bet I will stand vindicated. Wasn't Seshagopalan propped up by the brahmin community to check the advance of Somu? People like Trichur Ramachandran should not even accept it since the Padmabushan he received is a national award and far more recognized nationally. Try selling Sangeetha Kalanaidhi to get a fancy concert in North India. I am sure Padma Bushan will sell.

rajumds · Post by **rajumds** » 09 Jun 2008, 10:24

sadananthan wrote:Wasn't Seshagopalan propped up by the brahmin community to check the advance of Somu?

??? Sri. Somu was one generation before TNS. He was well past his prime in the 80's when TNS was an upcoming vidwan.

The question is not whether brahmins are preferred over others (which is to an extent true) but how to broadbase CM so that you have more and more vidwans from other communities.

SK is more treasured by the vidwans than the rasikas. Personally I don't decide to attend a concert based on the titles one has received.

And again Padma awards are a bigger muddle that SK.

Ofcourse discussing SK has become a annual thamasha in our site.

rbharath · Post by **rbharath** » 09 Jun 2008, 10:49

and about s_hari's choices, i couldnt agree more. Kalpakam mami is probably the best vainika around even today. some of the nuances in her music are unparalleled. she deserves a kalanidhi. and so is Smt Ponnammal.

there was a thread here (or was it on the erstwhile sangeetham site?) on the bram/non-bram kalanidhis and a lil survey on who got at what age.. if somebody could dig it, there could be some observations made to sadanathan's posts...

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 09 Jun 2008, 11:05

Please don't encourage the bozo.

kadambam · Post by **kadambam** » 09 Jun 2008, 19:22

sadananthan wrote:Ofcourse discussing SK has become a annual thamasha in our site.

It cannot be a bigger thamasha than the SK itself. With all due respect, SSI acted as a 'Velu Nayakan' for well over 3 or 4 decades in deciding who gets nominated and who gets awarded.

Adding to sadananthan's criteria,
5) State

- There are countless examples here.. RKS was awarded way past his due, absence of KSG in MA, Violetti should have received it.. ofcourse then there are the famous hall of famers.. don't wish to bring them again.

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 10 Jun 2008, 19:28

Guys and Dolls,

When the Music Academy wants your opinion regarding this year's Sangeetha Kalanidhi, they will give it to you. Not the Sangeetha Kalanidi; I mean the opinion!

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 10 Jun 2008, 20:14

harimau wrote:Guys and Dolls,

When the Music Academy wants your opinion regarding this year's Sangeetha Kalanidhi, they will give it to you. Not the Sangeetha Kalanidi; I mean the opinion!

Amen!

fuddyduddy · Post by **fuddyduddy** » 10 Jun 2008, 20:48

Dolls??? C'mon, thats kinda derogatory!! (just becos theres a musical by that name, it cant become a common usage!). Unless you were addressing the guys as dolls too

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 10 Jun 2008, 21:40

I think harimau was refering to all of us as 'viLaiyATTu bommaigaL'....

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 11 Jun 2008, 01:31

Oh no. khaTputli-s do not speak their minds like this. Moreover, dolls is meant as a compliment. 'Isn't she a doll?' (isn't she pretty?) is flattering to us but for the sort of feminists who take a stance even against a compliment . I see Punarvasu and Nilotpal (?) on the thread too. It may not be meant as a compliment for dolls with wrinkles, but who is complaining?

fuddyduddy · Post by **fuddyduddy** » 11 Jun 2008, 19:33

i guess there is a difference in getting a compliment (which i wouldnt have a problem depending on the source) and referring as a whole. depending on harimau's intentions - which i do think is innocent as in 'vilayaatu bommaigal', but i dont think its wrong to bring it up to make sure..
i dont know if i'm a feminist or not but i do care about women and how they are treated.

musicfan_4201 · Post by **musicfan_4201** » 12 Jun 2008, 09:29

Someday I guess MA will based on the ardent views expressed by each one of you will perhaps consider to change the rule in awarding SK to atleast 50 musicians every year (similar to the Padma awards). If that happens this thread will come to an end permanently:)

musicfan_4201 · Post by **musicfan_4201** » 12 Jun 2008, 09:40

sadananthan wrote:Can some body make a list of of brahmins vs non brahmins who received the SK? Also see if you can further divide the brahmin category to iyers vs iyengars. I bet I will stand vindicated. Wasn't Seshagopalan propped up by the brahmin community to check the advance of Somu? People like Trichur Ramachandran should not even accept it since the Padmabushan he received is a national award and far more recognized nationally. Try selling Sangeetha Kalanaidhi to get a fancy concert in North India. I am sure Padma Bushan will sell.

Beware - Next rasikas meet, these statements could lead to communal riots!

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 12 Jun 2008, 09:56

fuddyduddy wrote:i dont know if i'm a feminist or not but i do care about women and how they are treated.

You could try some writings of Camille Paglia for a whole different perspective on feminism.

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 12 Jun 2008, 10:50

Beware - Next rasikas meet, these statements could lead to communal riots!

musicfan,
From my observation of composition of 'rasikas', and their conduct so far, I am of opinion that they are way above such parochial considerations - the greatest binding factor being music. If Sadanandan happens to join the company of rasikas, he is bound to change his opinions and understand things in a broader perspective.

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 12 Jun 2008, 10:53

You could try some writings of Camille Paglia for a whole different perspective on feminism.

Let us shed this Western Oriented approach to any subject and try to find the good things - and bad things - about our culture which the west - thanks to greats like Vivekananda and Narayana Moorthy - have started realising.

sbala · Post by **sbala** » 12 Jun 2008, 13:19

try to find the good things - and bad things - about our culture which the west - thanks to greats like Vivekananda and Narayana Moorthy - have started realising.

VGV - How did Narayana Moorthy help in the West understanding Indian Culture? He is someone I respect a lot but for other reasons. Just curious.

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 12 Jun 2008, 18:19

sbala,
Narayana Moorthy was the prime mover in reverse brain drain. There was a time when MNCs used to threaten to leave this country - like what happened when IBM shut the shop thinking that India would come to its knees. Heavens did not fall when CocaCola was booted out by George Fernandez. They are all back with vengeance.
But the younger generation of India educated in English has still not understood the strength and cultural moorings of this Great Land. It is always a quote from West. If it is purely scientific, I can understand, but in literature too?
I cannot imagine an average Westerner citing Kalidasa, Valmiki or others in their examples in similes.
When are we going to shed the misplaced pride in our knowledge of English and its literature originating in a different cultural setting?
How feminism of West - which considers sex at par with handshake - corresponds to Indian ethos?

fuddyduddy · Post by **fuddyduddy** » 12 Jun 2008, 19:01

suresh - i did a quick read about camille paglia and some of her articles.. quite interesting.. agree with some of her thoughts.. though i shd read her more to make a better judgement.

vgvindan - why shd we shed western thoughts... if its applicable to indians and if someting is sensible, i dont think we should classify it geographically - everyone can follow it! and vice-versa - the westerners do follow and respect indian views when applicable to them..

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 12 Jun 2008, 19:09

fuddyduddy,
IMHO, 'thought' is different from 'approach'. I said 'approach'

s_hari · Post by **s_hari** » 12 Jun 2008, 19:28

I wanted to know on criteria for sangeetha kalanidhi title...If this is known public, can someone share? Or, is there no transparency?

-hari

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 12 Jun 2008, 22:11

vgvindan wrote:West - which considers sex at par with handshake

IMHO, this is at the same level of ignorance as a typical westerner would be about India. May be you were using hyperbole for effect?

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 12 Jun 2008, 22:39

There are very many differences between the 'ideal' Indian ethos and what happens in day-to-day life in India - I am just going to give you a couple of issues that bug me no end:
1. All of our SAstras revere the female as the supreme power, so much so that without the backing of their respective 'Saktis' the male gods of the pantheon are cosidered wimps (weak and impotent) - 'Sakti illAda Sivan sanyAsa kAvi', and yet, in daily life, we are well up there with respect to female feticide and infanticide.
2. Our literature is replete with examples of women like gArgI - extremely well educated and able to hold their own with any man - however, in daily life, females in India are less educated than males.

What I am trying to say is that not every 'Indian' practice is worthy of continuing. By the same token, there are so many aspects of Westen culture that are well worth emulating - daily courtesies (simple courtesy of asking before showing up, considering another's convenience, giving people their personal space etc. are what I consider essentials that are to be expected by everyone, but these seem to be alien concepts to many 'Indians' here who pride themselves on how well they have retained their 'Indian-ness'). I do know that we pride ourselves on our hospitality for instance, but there is no rule anywhere which says that this philosophy has to be tested by pushing the host at every instance! Similarly, professionalism is something else that I think we should adopt - simple ideas like starting programs on time, making a plan and sticking with it for the most part etc are again difficult to sell to many Indians who regard these virtues as 'Western snobbery', and infra dig to adopt!

If I could paraphrase Shakeel Badayuni, I'd say 'tU na Indian banEgA, nA amrIkan banEgA, insAn kA aulAd hai, insAn banEgA' first. There are nice things everywhere, and not so nice things as well ('you get a thorn with every rose, but ain't the roses sweet?'), we just have to decide what to adopt and what to jettison - and base this decision on what is right and what is not, and not blindly on what is Indian and what isn't.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 12 Jun 2008, 22:42

Lord, how did a thread on SK get here?!!

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 12 Jun 2008, 23:25

rs,
The digression was on the topic of 'feminism'. Notwithstanding the mal-treatment meted out to women in our country, I do not think West has any role model for feminism.
While other aspects - brought out by you - that we could emulate from the West, are very true, they do not seem to be relevant to the current digression of the thread. To that extent I beg to disagree with you.

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 13 Jun 2008, 06:36

If I were Head of MA , I would put up a Statue for the Unknown Music Teacher and give the award to a small town Carnatic Teacher from the remotest town , as a tribute to all those practitioners / exponents,teachers who have kept this tradition alive in a period when technology for dissemination was not so developed and were the ones to pollinate barren areas .
Like the teacher I knew In Davangere in the 70s, who was there simply because his son had got a transfer,and was so keen to enroll students in a HM stronghold.

Next opportunity, to the unknown mp3 converter.
On Behalf of future generations which will have terrabytes of music on their hard discs , and will never know whom to thank.

s_hari · Post by **s_hari** » 13 Jun 2008, 06:58

coolji - i second you for the post... Please bring in transparency also..

Does any other sabha have a process to select title nominee? I was also part of committee of a well known sabha in a city (no names please..) i am very well aware how artists are chosen for annual series, how title is awarded etc etc etc etc etc................

-hari