kaalmaariyaadum-devamanohai-papanasam sivan - meaning reques

knandago2001 · Post by **knandago2001** » 07 Jun 2008, 18:59

what does the phrase "kadimaal vidaiyaay" (in tamizh) mean?
it is from one of papanasam sivan's kritis -
"gangaadharane kanmoonrudaiyaay
kadimaalvidaiyaay virisenjadaiyaay"
many thanks for your help

PUNARVASU · Post by **PUNARVASU** » 07 Jun 2008, 19:07

Can you pl. write what the opening line of the song is and ragam if possible?

knandago2001 · Post by **knandago2001** » 07 Jun 2008, 19:11

ragam - devamnohari ; talam - aadi

pallavi - kaalmaariyaadum dayaanidhiye kalyaanasundarane shambho

anupallavi - naanmaadakkudal madurai azhagaa nanjaniyum manikantha thandai(k)

charanam - gangaadharane kanmoonrudaiyaay kadimaalvidaiyaay virisenjadaiyaay
pangaadum meenaakshi manohara harane engal kuladeivame

hope I got the words right, please check.. many thanks

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 07 Jun 2008, 19:56

kn,
viDai - means 'bull'. 'viDaiyAy' - one who (has) rides bull.
'kadimAl' - this needs to be checked.
'pangADum' - I think it should be 'pandADum' - one who plays ball (pandu + ADum)

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 07 Jun 2008, 20:11

கால் மாறியாடும் தயா நிதியே kAl mARiyADum dayA nidhiyE
கல்யாண ஸÂ¤ந்தரனே-சம்போ (கால்) kalyANa sundaranE SambhO

அனுபல்லவி
நான் மாடக் கூடல் மதுரை அழகா nAn-mADak kUDal madurai azhagA
நஞ்சணியும் மணிகண்டா-தண்டைக் (கால்) nanjaNiyum maNi kaNDA - taNDai

சரணம்
கங்கா தரனே கண் முன்றுடையாய் gangA dharanE kaN mUnRuDaiyAy
கடிமால் விடையாய் விரி செஞ்சடையா kaDimAl viDaiyAy viri sencaDayA
பங்காடும் மீனாக்ஷÂ¢ மனோஹரா pangADum mInAkshi manOharA
ஹரனே எங்கள் குல தெய்வமே (கால்) haranE engaL kula deiyvamE

http://www.tamilnation.org/culture/musi ... sivan2.htm

(English transliteration by me)
According to this 'pangADum' seems to be correct. 'pangu' means - half; 'ADu' - dancing - probabaly this refers to ardha-nArISvara tatva.

kaDi-mAl (kaDi - fragrant) - (mAl - vishnu)?

Rajani · Post by **Rajani** » 07 Jun 2008, 20:39

I think here "kaDi" means fast. "mAl" means big, but could also mean Vishnu, since Vishnu is supposed to take the form of Shiva's mount occasionally. The shloka "bANatvam RShabhatavm" in shivAnandalahari refers to this.

knandago2001 · Post by **knandago2001** » 07 Jun 2008, 20:48

vgv: thanks a lot for the transliteration and the web link. even if vidaiyaay refers to nandi vahana, what could possibly be the connection to tirumaal? the meaning of kadimaal remains unclear (as you have also pointed out). i must get a good dictionary the next time i'm in madras..
i forgot to add that i was reconstructing this song from my vaadyaar's music note book written in grantha bhasha! the dhaatu is very attractive and highly reminiscent of poochi iyengar's neekelanaayeda nischalamu

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 07 Jun 2008, 20:52

pAngADum=pAngAi ADum? pAngu=the following, all of which are apt: azhagu, side by side, with ability.

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 07 Jun 2008, 20:59

Rajani,
May be you are right - but in many tirumurais 'mAl viDai' has been taken to mean 'great bull'. Please see the links -
http://www.kaumaram.com/thiru/nt1008.html
http://www.thevaaram.org/thirumurai_1/s ... 84&thiru=1
http://groups.google.com/group/muththam ... 044c59f5f5

Accordingly - kaDi mAl viDai - could mean - fast-great-bull

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 07 Jun 2008, 21:04

arasi,
The pallavi line reads 'kAl mARi ADiya' - therefore, 'pangu+ADum - seems to be more appropriate.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 08 Jun 2008, 01:39

Govindan,
I agree--though lyrically, it might also work the other way. I did not know about this song until now.

Nandagopal,
Since you know the song, you could tell us how it sounds musically as well--by trying to sing it both ways...

knandago2001 · Post by **knandago2001** » 08 Jun 2008, 05:51

arasi: the intonation of a vowel makes "paangaadum" more pleasing to the ear; whether it is sung as pangaadum or paangaadum there is no change in the akshara kaala; the multiplicity of meanings (all of which are apt, as you pointed out) for paangu does have appeal; however, is there a reference in the sthala purana to meenaakshi sundareshwarar being worshipped as ardhanaareeshawara (i forget if there is such a vigraha in the temple); additionally if it is a typo (pangaadum vs paangaadum), maybe Sri. Ashok Ramani could kindly clarify.

Sundara Rajan · Post by **Sundara Rajan** » 08 Jun 2008, 06:46

In vol 2 of p.sivan's kIrthanai mAlai, it is printed as pangAdum mInAkshi manOhara, short pa and not long pA.. I remember listening to this composition being taught in AIR Tiruchi evening "isai payirchi" program by one thyAgarAjan in the late 1940's or early fifities !

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 08 Jun 2008, 06:52

Nandagopal,
Thank you for the prompt feed back. Your musical and lyrical sensitivity helps, of course.
On a lighter note, even if there is mention of 'pangu' in the stala
purANam, there is no need for a composer to mention it in a song or in every song of that particular deity!

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 08 Jun 2008, 10:58

kn,
IMHO, the 'ardhanArISvara tatva' described in the kriti (assuming 'pangADum' is correct), is more implicit than explicit.
Sakti is known as 'vAmAnkastha' - one who is on the left side.
In the kriti 'abhirAmIM' - rAga bhUshAvati, MD states 'mArkaNDEyAyushprada yama bhayApahAriNIM'. This kriti refers to tirukkaDavUr where Siva (as kAla saMhAra mUrti) is stated to have kicked yama by his left foot. The left foot, by implication, belongs to Sakti - hence the statement in the kriti.
Please also refer to discourse Kanchi paramAcArya on the 'saundarya lahari' wherein he discusses about 'ardhanArISvara' principle. http://www.geocities.com/profvk/gohitvip/DPDS16-20.html

knandago2001 · Post by **knandago2001** » 08 Jun 2008, 17:18

vgv, arasi and sundara rajan: this has been very stimulating.. many thanks!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 08 Jun 2008, 21:15

Sundara Rajan,
Those old times! iSaip payiRci days! Do you remember when tiruvoTRiyUr tyAgarAjan was taught on the AIR? I used to look forward to the program (more so because we were in Andhra Pradesh then), and I would follow the words carefully and amused my father no end in singing 'OhO hO nAn enna SeivEn as OKO KO because that is how it was printed in the AIR magazine vAnoli!
Arun, the trouble with tamizh script and pronunciation started even in those days

I bet CML has something to add. Still busy playing with the grandkid?

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 08 Jun 2008, 21:36

Irrespective of the arguments between pangADum and pAngADum, I would think prAsa with gangAdharanE would make a very strong case for pangADum - wouldn't it?

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 08 Jun 2008, 22:26

Just FYI... pAngADum ( பாங்காடும்) shows up here at this link: http://www.infitt.org/pmadurai/mp254.html , verse 109. Mentioning it just in case it sheds some light on pAngADum . In the neighborhood of verse 109, there are a lot of references to pAngi. I can not tell if pAngi and pAngADum are related or not.

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 08 Jun 2008, 23:06

vk,
pAngi means 'friend' (girl friend). pAngADum - to play along side. Both pAngi and pAngADum are derived from 'pAngu' - meaning 'side - left or right'.
pAngu has other meanings also but these may not be relevant here.

pangu means 'half' 'share'
You may choose whatever you want.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 09 Jun 2008, 01:36

I agree with Nandagopal that the discussion has been awesome! Some alternate meanings/explanations that occurred to me are:

pangu means share (the word pangALi seems to have evolved from here - meaning a person with a stake/share/claim) - the shares can be equal or unequal.

pAngu could also mean beauty/appropriateness

So, pangADum could be some one who shares in the dancing (as in 'dancing together', not 'dancing as one' - in the citsabhA, naTarAja and sivakAmi are supposed to dance together, not as one, but naTarAja dancing the tANDava and sivakAmi the lAsya form of the dance).

Similarly, pAngADum could be pANgAga ADum or pAnguDan ADum - the delighter (manOharA) of mInAkSI who dances (ADum) beautifully (pAngu).

Rajani · Post by **Rajani** » 09 Jun 2008, 05:11

I think that "pangADum" would mean "pangil Adum" ie "she who sports on your one side/half". If so ADum will mean not dancing, but residing sportingly/

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 09 Jun 2008, 05:49

But Rajani, I read 'pangADum' in the line 'pangADum mInAkSI manOharA' as an adjective/descriptor of SivA (mInAkSI manOharA). In that context, wouldn't it be - one who dances beside/with?

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 09 Jun 2008, 09:13

'pAngAga' would have been my word there if it were my composition. Don't ask me why after all the 'back and forth'. Call it composer's choice--good or otherwise!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 09 Jun 2008, 09:15

Mods,
The first line of the song needs to be included in the title of the thread.

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 09 Jun 2008, 10:52

Every composer seems to have some pet phrases - Please refer to the following kRtis of pApanAsam Sivan - http://www.tamilnation.org/culture/musi ... sivan2.htm
kRti - uLLamiranguvadun kaDanE - kAnaDa - pangilurai
kRti - tiruvaruL tandaruLvAi dEvi - bEgaDa - pangurai

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 09 Jun 2008, 11:33

கங்கையேந்தி திங்களேந்தி gangaiyEndi tingaLEndi
பங்கில் அங்கயற்கண்ணியேந்தி pangil angayaRkaNNiyEndi
அங்கையில் அங்கியேந்தி angaiyil angiyEndi
சங்க மன்றுள் கால்மாறி யாடுவான் sanga manRuL kAlmARiyADuvAn

பங்கிலுறை மங்கையே - எமது pangiluRai mangaiyE - emadu
சங்கை யிதனைத் தீர்த்திடுவாய் - நீ sangai yidanait tIrtthADuvAi - nI
சங்கரனுடன் கூடி நிதமும் sangaranuDan kUDi nidamum
பங்காடினாயா பாங்காடினாயா? pangADinAyA pAngADinAyA?

wearing Ganga, adorning crescent,
carrying as (better?) half the fish-eyed lady,
carrying fire in the palm,
the dancing Lord in the (Tamil) sangam (assembly) hall;

O Lady who remains as His (better) half - our
doubt this one - please clarify;
together with Sankara, daily,
Did you dance as his Half or alongside (or nicely)?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 09 Jun 2008, 11:45

VGV: It is quite amusing to see the last line given our discussion..The song ends with pangADinAyA pAngADinAyA

Does this shed any further light? Is the difference between the two something like 'Integrated part and parcel' vs separate but by the side ?

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 09 Jun 2008, 11:49

vk,
I have asked mInAkshi to clarify it; my conclusion is contained in the couplet itself.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 09 Jun 2008, 11:50

VGV, now I see you have added the transliteration and translation. Your translation is along the lines of what I thought as well.

knandago2001 · Post by **knandago2001** » 09 Jun 2008, 13:13

vgv: thats some amazing detective work on your part .. very nice.. pangaadum it is!!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 09 Jun 2008, 19:28

Govindan,
Great research!
sank(g)ai, iDar it is (doubts, obstacles)

PUNARVASU · Post by **PUNARVASU** » 10 Jun 2008, 08:33

sangam vaLarththa maduraiyilE mAdorubAganudan nI
pangAdinayO pAngAi Adinayo yAmariyOm
engaLukkuL ezhunda sang(k)aiyAl
engaLaip pandAdavittanaiyE ammA
engaLsang(k)atamum sang(k)aiyum thIrkka
gOvindan muraiyIdu undan seviyil vizhavillaiyO
kAnchana mAlai manamagizha kannonjal Adiya
nangaiyE nAraNanthangaiyE
mangai mInAkshiyE pAngai pagarndaruLvAyE

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 10 Jun 2008, 09:05

pangAgavum ADinAL, pAngAgavum ADinAL
nAmum pAnguDanE pangu koNDOm
Sangai ilAdu SuvaDi puraTTIc connAr gOvindan-
idil vindai Edu? iduvE nam rasikar Sangam!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 10 Jun 2008, 10:02

Nice.

knandago2001 · Post by **knandago2001** » 10 Jun 2008, 11:13

avaL aruLai naadi, padam paadi magizhnthaaL muttamizhin arasi

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 10 Jun 2008, 20:35

muttamizhin mahimai muTRum aRiyAda avaL--puarvasuvuDanE...

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 11 Jun 2008, 18:09

தான் நின்று, இல்லாளை ஆட்டிவைக்க tAn ninRu illALai ATTivaikka
தென்புலியூர் இதுவன்று சிவகாமி நாதா ten puliyUr iduvanRu sivakAmi nAdA
தென்பாண்டி நாட்டிலே வழக்கு வேறு ten pANDi nATTilE vazhakku vERu
என் பெண் நிற்க நீதான் ஆடவேண்டும் en peN niRka nIdAn ADavENDum

எந்தையிட்ட நிபந்தனைக் குட்பட்டே endaiyiTTa nibandanaik kuTpaTTE
என்னைக் கைப் பிடித்தான் நடராசன் ennaik kaippiDittAn naDarAjan
உன் சங்கைக்குப் பொருளேதுமில்லை un sangaikkup poruLEdumillai
நான் பங்காடவுமில்லை பாங்காடவுமில்லை nAn pangADavumillai pAngADavumillai

இத்தனை சொல்லி இரகசியமாக ittanai solli iragasiyamAga
இன்னொன்றும் சொன்னாள் அம்மை innonRum sonnAL ammai
இங்கு பெண்கொண்டோரிடம் கேள் ingu peN koNDOriDam kEL
இஃதுண்மையென்று சாற்றுவர் iHduNmaiyenRu sATruvar

Self standing and making your wife dance;
This is not South Puliyur, O Lord of Sivakami
There is a different custom here in South Pandya land
While my daughter stands, You will dance

By agreeing to the condition of my father
Lord Nataraja married me
(Therefore) there is no meaning in your doubt
Neither I dance as His half or by his side

Having said all these, secretly
My mother said this too
Ask those who have got Bride from here,
They will assert that it is true.

South puliyUr - cidambaram
tenpANDi nADu - Kingdom having madurai as capital

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 11 Jun 2008, 19:30

VGV,

SUPERB!

Perfect descpition of the dEvi in the oDiyANapITham...as the 'ATTivaippavaL' and not 'ADubavaL'!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 11 Jun 2008, 20:20

Govindan,
Don't know where the other peN maNis are from. This ten pANDi nATTUp pazham peN likes your verse--but the content? Termagants we are not! bArati from the same tAmira varNik karai knew our worth, didn't he?

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 11 Jun 2008, 20:20

As for you, Ravi!

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 11 Jun 2008, 20:32

arasi,
At cidambaram, the Lord is dancing with left foot - (Sivakami) - up - while He - right foot - is resting; at madurai, Lord is dancing with right foot - Himself - up - while mInAkshi - left foot - is resting.
Sorry if it hurt anyone. You know I am more feminist than many feminine-feminists.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 11 Jun 2008, 20:39

Not at all. You know me enough to know that I can be a tease too--all in good humor, of course

PUNARVASU · Post by **PUNARVASU** » 11 Jun 2008, 20:41

In the same context- Tthere is a common usage in the South Indian families-
'ungaathulE ChidambaramA ,MaduraiyA'- I am not going to elaborate;forumites will know what it means.
Just wanted to refer to it.
VGV, wonderful 'kavithai'.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 11 Jun 2008, 20:58

Punarvasu wrote:'ungaathulE ChidambaramA ,MaduraiyA'

Before any of us (guys) even think of answering that one, let us all remind ourselves of our Miranda rights!

:P

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 11 Jun 2008, 21:11

arasi wrote:As for you, Ravi!

Although tongue-in-cheek (:P), I was referring only to the 'kayalvizhiyAL'!