In honor of varalakshmI vratam

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 07 Aug 2006, 01:10

Kiransurya,
Thank you for joining in! I am not in any particular hurry for any songs. I merely thought a musical interlude would divert the fans seated around the arena while the giants sparred!
cml,
Remember Hazlitt's essay, that pugilistic classic? Memory dims--was it called The Fight??

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 07 Aug 2006, 01:16

cmlover wrote:Thanks DRS!
I enjoyed the 'look backs'. let us move on. And other folks take over!
How did the dAsar sAhityam 'bhAgyada lakShmi..' became so important for the Telugu practice of 'varalakShmi vratam'?

Is there a Teugu version of this song. Faintly remember someone singing a long time back.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 07 Aug 2006, 01:45

VK,
Merci.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 07 Aug 2006, 03:24

drshrikaanth wrote:
kiransurya wrote:depending upon the the financial status of the groom and his family, the bride will be given a gold mangala sutram later on half of which will be from bride`s side and the other half from grooms`s side. .
Its the same among kannaDigas as well- one half from each side.

In our family, the bride's family and the groom's family each make one half of the symbol of fertility aka tAli, and both pieces are collected by the groom's family, strung on a yellow thread along with black, red and golden beads and placed on a silver platter and worshipped/blessed during the 'sumangali prArthana' before the wedding: during the ceremony itself, the tAli is passed through a yoke (that is placed on the adjacent shoulders of the bride and groom) before the groom ties it around the bride's neck after the kanyAdAnam - as it was explained to me, the yoke placed on both shoulders symbolizes that the 'cart' of life will move forward (in the correct direction) only if both partners pull equally, and the tAli and is to bless the union with children....

Ravi

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 07 Aug 2006, 03:27

kaNNadAsan's take on the tAli was very simple:
'melliDaiyAL kazhuttil uLLa tAli yenbadu
nimirndu varum ADavarai vilaga sholvadU'
:rolleyes:
Ravi

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 07 Aug 2006, 03:35

rshankar wrote:In our family, the bride's family and the groom's family each make one half of the symbol of fertility aka tAli, and both pieces are collected by the groom's family, strung on a yellow thread along with black, red and golden beads and placed on a silver platter and worshipped/blessed during the 'sumangali prArthana' before the wedding: during the ceremony itself, the tAli is passed through a yoke (that is placed on the adjacent shoulders of the bride and groom) before the groom ties it around the bride's neck after the kanyAdAnam - as it was explained to me, the yoke placed on both shoulders symbolizes that the 'cart' of life will move forward (in the correct direction) only if both partners pull equally, and the tAli and is to bless the union with children....Ravi

You are right Ravi. I erred earlier about "dAra with ariSinada kone" tied during marriage. I should have recalled my own marriage

Yes, it is the mAngalya, gold and black beads that are strung in a yellow thread just as in the tALi (tAli in tamizh) and tied at the time of wedding. They are later strung though a gold string that in turn is placed in a gold chain.

However Iam not sure about the tALi being passed thorugh the yoke in our custom. The noga(yoke) is of course placed on bride's shoulders.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 07 Aug 2006, 03:39

Having said that, I think the ariSinada kone is tied in some communities and also by those who cannot afford to buy gold.

Nice words of kannadasan. Feels nice to recall them her,

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 07 Aug 2006, 03:47

Quoting from SrI. M.Keshavaiah regarding the placing of the yoke.

sUtra 8 from 1st khaNDa of 1st prapAThaka of EkAgni kANda in kRShNa yajurvEda

uttarENa yajuShA tasyASSirasi darbhENvanidhAya (a)
tasminnuttarayA dakShiNam yugacchidram pratiShThApya (b)
chidrE suvarNamuttarayANtardhAya (c)
uttarAbhiH pancabhissnApayitva (d)
uttarayA~hatEna vAsasA~cchAdya (e)
uttarayAyOktrENa sannahyati (f)|

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 07 Aug 2006, 03:49

Please translate....

Ravi

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 07 Aug 2006, 03:53

arasi
Thanks for that trip down the memorylane! see
http://www.blupete.com/Literature/Essay ... /Fight.htm
How can I forget those lines
Between the acting of a dreadful thing
And the first motion, all the interim is
Like a phantasma, or a hideous dream

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 07 Aug 2006, 04:11

Translation for
sUtra (a)- A Simbi (ring for placing over head when carrying pot) made of darbhe grass should be placed over the bride's head.
after uttering the following mantra. The mantra being

aryamNO agnim pariyantukShipram pratIkShamtAgm SvaSvrO dEvarASca ||8||

By sUrya's grace, the manner in which the Simbi encircles the head, may it be seen too by my and her mother and brothers.

sUtra (b)- The right side of the yoke should be placed over the Simbi on the bride's head

by uttering the folllowing mantra (the groom must utter this)

khE~nasaH khErathaH khEyugasya SacIpatE |
apAlAM indrattriH pUrtvyA karathsUrya varcasam ||9||

O SacIpati! In the past, just as the maiden apAlA, afflicted by leprosy/vitiligo, was cured of it and became radiant as the sun by partaking of the water associated with your chariot, wheel and yoke, likewise do unto this maide(bride) as well.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 07 Aug 2006, 04:31

DRS

chidrE suvarNamuttarayANtardhAya (c)

(place the 'gold' on the hole of the 'nukam')

I expected you to use this quote from Apastambha sUtra as the proof of the 'taali' being essential in the wedding ceremony. No doubt in practice the 'golden' taali is used for that purpose! But what is meant is that gold must be used for that purpose according to the vedic (Apasthambha sUtra) viz.,

'shaM tE hiraNyaM
shamu santvApaH
sham tE mEdhI bhavantu
sham yugasya t^Ridma ||'

(let the gold be auspicious to you, let the waters be sweet to you, let 'the post where cowis tied' (mEdhi) be sweet to you, let the hole (t^Ridmam) of the nukam (yuga) be sweet to you)
This is part of the 'abAlA sUktam' (vedic) used to purify the vadhu!

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 07 Aug 2006, 04:37

Continuing translation (Of translation:)

sUtra (c)- Gold must be placed in the hole in the yoke by uttering the folowing mantra (by the groom)(Ravi- this may be why the golden tALi is passed though the yoke)

SantE hiraNyagm SamusantvApaSSantE mEdhI bhavatu Sam yugasya tRdma |
Santa ApaSSatapavitrA bhavantvathA patyAtanvagmsagm sRjasva ||10||

O bride! May the gold placed in the aperture of the yoke betide happiness to you.May the waterr of the yoke too bring you happiness. SO also may the yoke placed on your head. As also the aperture in the yoke. May the water that purifies all matter cause you happiness. Subsequently may you unite your body with mine at the time of consummation.

sUtra (d)- Water is to be sprinkled on uttering the succeeding 5 mantras.

The 5 mantras (which I am not quoting) invoke savitR, sUrya, agni, varuNa and the other dEvas seeking them to make the bride pure in and body and to bring her happiness.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 07 Aug 2006, 04:49

Translations continued
sUtra (e)- The bride must be wrapped in a new, unworn cloth upon uttering the following mantra.

paritvAgirvaNOgira imA bhavantu viSvataH |
vRddhAyu manu vRddhayO juShTA bhavantu juShTayaH ||6||

O indra, who is worthy of praise and prayer, just as this cloth given by me is enclosing my bride, so also may my prayers wrap you. You are one who seeksr elderly preceptors. Hence may my prayers ever serve you.

The following sUtras and mantras I will leave out as they do not deal with placing the yoke. They all seek happiness and safety to the bride. Then follows the pANigrahaNa.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 07 Aug 2006, 05:46

drshrikaanth wrote:Translations continued
sUtra (e)- The bride must be wrapped in a new, unworn cloth upon uttering the following mantra.

Good reason to splurge on the 'kUrapoDavai'...

Ravi

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 07 Aug 2006, 06:01

DRS
Did you notice that there is no direct invocation to Indra on your sUtra (e)? Though your translation is correct do you know where it is coming from?
Why is it called 'kURai'?

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 07 Aug 2006, 06:11

cmlover wrote:DRS
Did you notice that there is no direct invocation to Indra on your sUtra (e)? Though your translation is correct do you know where it is coming from?
Why is it called 'kURai'?

girvaNas is indra and it occurs in the mantra. Anyway my translation is a translation of the translation from the original by Sri. M.Keshaviah:D

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 07 Aug 2006, 06:14

cmlover wrote:Why is it called 'kURai'?

kURai is cloth.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 07 Aug 2006, 06:14

Not really! girvANa is simply a deva (it is the vedic 'chandas' form of gIrvANa). The invocation to Indra is added externally since this verse is lifted from stOtra to Indra from the Rig veda!

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 07 Aug 2006, 06:16

cmlover wrote:Not really! girvANa is simply a deva (it is the vedic 'chandas' form of gIrvANa). The invocation to Indra is added externally since this verse is lifted from stOtra to Indra from the Rig veda!

Excuse me! Look up the dictionary.

It is very aptly used in the mantra here as literallly "girvaNas" means "Him delighting in stOtras".

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 07 Aug 2006, 06:16

>>kURai is cloth
Correct! (ancient Tamizh word!)

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 07 Aug 2006, 06:20

cmlover wrote:>>kURai is cloth
Correct! (ancient Tamizh word!)

Partially correct. it also happens to be an ancient kannaDa word.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 07 Aug 2006, 06:21

Yes! you are right
MW gives indra/agni
But it is not in the sambOdana vibhakti in that verse!

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 07 Aug 2006, 06:22

>>Partially correct. it also happens to be an ancient kannaDa word.

I expected that

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 07 Aug 2006, 06:31

cmlover wrote:Yes! you are right
MW gives indra/agni
But it is not in the sambOdana vibhakti in that verse!

Try girvaN which too means indra.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 07 Aug 2006, 07:17

What an exciting sunday! Champions, thank you both for a dazzling display of scholarship and wit.
Oh, no! The next round is not going to be about which came first--kannaDA or tamizh!

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 07 Aug 2006, 07:27

It wont be Arasi. Amen!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 07 Aug 2006, 08:58

MANGALAM, A MICRO PLAY OF NO SPOKEN WORDS

Time: Any time, any century Place: A village street

A festive air pervades. Kolams (rangOlis) line the street. Women in their finery are seen darting in and out of the houses carrying fruits and flowers.
You hear BowLi being played on the nAdaswaram.
The spotlight is on two men, Freud Shastry and Jung Dikshitar sitting on the tiNNai and taking in the scene.
They stir. Strains of Hamsadhwani are heard on the violin now. You see Shastry and Dikshitar deep in conversation (all in mime). It develops into animated talk. Lots of body language of gesturing. A burst of lightening speed swaras in a jugal bandi are heard.

Women inside the house are singing bhAgyada laksmi bAramma and sri varalakshmi and recite verses as the two figures outside freeze in their gestures.

Time stands still for a while.

Children come running out of the house eating sweets--happy to be out and playing again.

The two figures unfreeze.
Three women come out and put plates of edibles in front of the men.
One sings: kallu sakkare koLLIrO in KalyANI.
The other sings: panasa NAri kELAri
The third one sings: laDDU laDDU miTTAI vENumA, nalla RHOMBUS onRum vENDumA?

kadana kuthUhalam on the mandolin.
The two men partake of the sweets, pat each other on the back and laugh.

A distant suarti (surutti) is heard on the veena.

CURTAIN

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 07 Aug 2006, 10:54

bharatavAkyaM

paraspara virOdhinyOrEkasamshrayadurlabhaM|
sangataM shrIsarasvatyOrbhUthayE astu sadA satAM||
(May learning and wealth that oppose each other unite in one common abode, which is ever so rare to bring prosperity to the good people)

shubhaM

srinidhi · Post by **srinidhi** » 07 Aug 2006, 11:53

I am not denyig that there are communities in the North(as Im sure in the south as well) that do not have the ceremony but tying of the mangalsUtra is very much a part of Mainstream north indian culture and customs. In this I have no doubt.

Nope. As someone who has witnessed both types of marraiges (UP- Brahmin and Tamil Iyer), let me attempt to answer some questions.

There is no tying of mangalasutra in the marraige ceremony itself. Maharashtrians have it- but not people of UP, Bihar, Punjab, Rajasthan. The key moment in the marraige ceremony is the applying of sindhoor on the bride's head (parting of hair). Apart from the jaymaal, gathbandhan and the saat phere (Saptapadi).

The mangalsutra is usually presented to the bride by her MIL when she first comes to her husband's home (mukh dikhai). Again this varies from place to place, custom to custom.

But the bottomline is, the mangalsutra does not enjoy the same sanctity as the " taali" of the south -where the women wear it constantly. Up north, the mangalasutra comes out of the cupborad only for religious and festive ocaasions (unlike what is depicted in TV Serials). You are free to remove it at other times

. At least it has been so for the past three genarations.

Yes, mangalasutra is a sign of marraige but it is not complsory. The sindhhor, nath (nose ring) and bichuwa (toe rings) find greater priority.

Instead of the yoke, we have the gathbandhan- symbolising the unity. The groom's shawl is tied to the bride's chunri by a married lady, usually the groom's sister (if she is elder and married).
Then the couple take the seven rounds around the fire.
The first five rounds are taken with the groom in front and the bride following him, for the last two, the bride leads the groom symbolising that should illness or Death aproach them, then she would be the first to face it.

srinidhi · Post by **srinidhi** » 07 Aug 2006, 15:19

I believe the 'santOsha maata' vratam widely celebrated by NI belongs to the same category!

Santoshi Maa vrat is performed every friday by both married and unmarried women. It is just a fast(wherein one cannot partake anything sour). There is no celebration of any kind.
I don't think it is equivalent to the varalakshmi vratam.

What is probably closer is the "Kadwa chauth" vrat -in the sense -that it is celebrated by married women; once you start, you cannot stop; the first kadwa chauth is very special, etc. In fact, coming to think of it, varalakshmi vratam and kadwas chauth are similar in many ways. IN varalaksmi vratam, we worship lakshmi; in kadwa chauth Goddess Gowri is worshipped.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 07 Aug 2006, 18:33

Srinidhi, isn't kaDwA or karwA chaut the same as 'kAraDayar nOnbu'?
Ravi

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 07 Aug 2006, 20:54

Thanks srinidhi
for enlightening us!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 07 Aug 2006, 21:17

cml,
Does rare (durlabham) here mean precious rather than scarce? At least, your shubham at the end makes me think that...

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 07 Aug 2006, 21:39

dictionary does give the meanings excellent/dear/costly for durlabham. But here it is used as a qualifier of shrIsarasvatyOrbhUti (grace of both LakShmi and Sarasvati (who are mutual enemies (MIL vs DIL

. Hence the invocation is for the auspicious blessing of both which is a rarity! The quote is from kaLidasa whose vAg cAturya is evident!
vidyA varaM dIyatE iti varalakShmI (she gives the boon of knowledge!) since
vidyA vinA shrI v^RithA (Wealth without education is a waste!)

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 07 Aug 2006, 22:41

I remember reading an analysis of the "tALi" by well known scholar Sri gourIsh kaikiNi several years ago.
Even though I do not remember all the details, his take was the taLi represented a pot or a vessel which
is used to cook rice.His inference was that the tALi represented that the woman was a 'gRuhiNi'.

I will try to hunt that article and post the details if I find it.

-Ramakriya

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 07 Aug 2006, 23:56

In Tamil (now I don't know about kannada

the word 'thaali' also has the meaning of 'mud pot' but in my view that is inappropriate in the context of a TN wedding!

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 08 Aug 2006, 03:53

cmlover wrote:In Tamil (now I don't know about kannada the word 'thaali' also has the meaning of 'mud pot'

That is the tadbhava of the sanskrit word "sthAli" meaning the same thing

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 08 Aug 2006, 04:33

Agreed! Apparently that particular meaning is an import!

MaalirumSolaiNambi · Post by **MaalirumSolaiNambi** » 19 Aug 2006, 08:48

I believe cml is right in his contention that mAngalya-dharaNam is not a "vedic" requirement of a marriage.

But I am not sure about his assertion that it originated in Tamil tradition.

FYI -- Check Indian laws.
A Hindu marriage is supposed to have taken place once sapthapadi has taken place. That is supposed to be the bright-line test of whether or not a marriage has legally occurred -- not whether or not a thAli was tied. The law says nothing about the mAngalya-dharaNam.

Disclaimer -- this was all based on what I read more than 20 years ago, when that topic was of some interest to me!

Vocalist · Post by **Vocalist** » 19 Aug 2006, 17:52

What is or who was Maalirum?

rajumds · Post by **rajumds** » 20 Aug 2006, 10:17

The tamil bramin wedding consists of 2 parts , kanyadhanam & panigrahanam (with the mangalyadharanam in between). The invitation from bride's side mentions kanyadhanam & from the groom's side panigrahanam. So you are invited for kanyadhanam & panigrahanam and there is no mention of mangalyadaranam. But there are many other rituals with no mantras which are a part of the marriage (like Oonjal, malai maatruthal). In fact exchange garlands is considered as marriage & hence the practice that you should not garland any one other than your wife/husband from the opposite sex.

Mangalyadharanam is performed during Shashtapthapoorthy & Sathabishegam also.

srkris · Post by **srkris** » 20 Aug 2006, 13:04

I think I have recounted this anecdote earlier...

Chembai attended a concert of MSS, where the organizers wanted him to garland her at the end of the concert and give his blessings.

He asked them to ascertain whether him garlanding MS would be objectionable to her... the answer was 'no'. Then he asked the organizers to ascertain whether it would be objectionable to Sadasivam. The answer was 'no' again. He then asked his wife who was present with him at the concert, and she also replied 'no'. Then he said to the organizers "So no one seems to have an objection, but I object. I will not garland her, although she has all my blessings".

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 20 Aug 2006, 18:18

srikris,
Thanks. Fascinating man whose music, sense of humor and joy for life are still ours to savor.

MaalirumSolaiNambi · Post by **MaalirumSolaiNambi** » 04 Sep 2006, 07:52

Vocalist wrote:What is or who was Maalirum?

Thirumaalirumsolai = AzhagarKovil, which is about 15 kms or so northeast of Madurai. It is one of the Vaishnava divya desams, and it is unique in that after Srirangam and Thirumalai, it has the most number of paasurams dedicated by the azhwars.

The lord there, Sri Sundararajan (also known as kaL-azhagar - hence the name azhagarKovil), is also referred to as maalirumsolainambi by aNdaL in her paasurams.

(By the way, there is also a koodal-azhagar Kovil, in the center of Madurai, another divya desam - and that is the place where periyazhwar started "pallandu, pallandu ..." - but generally azhagar refers to Sri Sundararaja of azhagarKovil).

Arasi can translate maalirumsolai - in the sangeetham board, I translated the "solai" part as "park" and I believe she corrected me by noting a more appropriate word is "oasis" or "garden."

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 04 Sep 2006, 08:04

Hello, mAlirum sOlai!
Yes, I do remember that. sOlai is a grove or woods, I would think. Garden is a cultivated one (thOTTAM)...

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 05 May 2007, 00:23

Some time back, this thread had a reference to 'tATanka'.

In this regard, the tyAgarAja kRti pAhi kalyAna rAma - rAga kApi - caraNa 3 wherein prahlAda praises the Lord as 'nAdaidO-tanamu'. (nAdu+aidO-tanamu) -

aidO-tanamu â€“ in telugu aiduva tanamu means â€˜the status of a married woman or a wife whose husband is aliveâ€™ (sumangali); the word â€˜aiduvaâ€™ seems to have been used as â€˜aidOâ€™ in a colloquial way. This has been derived from the five (aidu) decorations (alankAram) of a married woman â€“ these are called â€˜aidu vanneluâ€™ â€“ (1) mangaLa sUtram, (2) turmeric, (3) kunkum, (4) bangles, (5) ear ornament (ear leaf) (ceviyAku). http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/romadi ... able=brown

Ear-ornament â€“ ceviyAku - a roll of dried palm-leaf â€“ tATanka â€“ Please refer to SrI lalitA sahasranAmam (22) â€“ tATanka yugalIbhUta tapanODupa maNDalA â€“ One who wears Sun and Moon as the Ear-leaf.

In saundarya lahari (28) Adi SankarAcArya states that â€˜because of the might of tATanka of mother, Siva was not affected even after consuming poisonâ€

rrao13 · Post by **rrao13** » 08 May 2007, 19:56

Dear Sri Govinadan: Excellent research! Please accept my heartfelt congratulations. You are educating ignoramuses like me on so many different aspects of Saint Thyagaraja's gaana sahitya. Thank you very much for your divine efforts.

khp · Post by **khp** » 03 Jul 2009, 09:33

Apologies for reviving this thread after a long long time! Landed here while searching for a recording of Varalakshmi Namostute in Gowri Manohari. I see that the first post in this thread suggests the recording was posted earlier. Any possibility that it can be posted again?

Thanks very much!
-Vinod

vs_manjunath · Post by **vs_manjunath** » 03 Jul 2009, 13:41

khp- It's commercially available as a Cassette of MLV- Devi Stutis/ Devi Navrathnamaala.